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I note that tptacek uses 'I', 'me', or 'my' at least fourteen times in the comment i was responding to (i didn't count carefully), and yet he's not the one who

I note that tptacek uses 'I', 'me', or 'my' at least fourteen times in the comment i was responding to (i didn't count carefully), and yet he's not the one who got chastised.

grzm 10y ago
I'm plunking this comment down here at the bottom as it has to go somewhere. It's not meant to apply to any one comment among its ancestors. This whole conversation is particularly delicate. All of you care about this topic to some extent, or you wouldn't have commented. I commented because I don't want to see it descend into a flame war. If the goal is to score points or try to demonstrate bad behavior, it's unfortunately way too easy to do so, with no constructive result other than every one all around feeling that their judgements of other people are justified. I'd rather figure out if there's something to be gained by the conversation: if nothing else, to show an excess of honest civility and respect for each other as people, even if we vehemently disagree with their opinions, erring on the side of not saying anything that can possibly be construed of as unfair. Make it easier for people to say something honest and civil than get defensive and say something reflexive and knee-jerky, which is all too easy online.
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  Make it easier for people to say something honest and civil than get defensive and say something reflexive and knee-jerky, which is all too easy online. The problem is people are going to say reflexive, awful things no matter what. You could bury Mount Everest under the evidence of that fact at this point. So this isn't about "scoring points" -- if it were I'd just link people to the guidelines over and over again -- it's about publicly calling people out when they do this stuff. Because as long as everyone's polite to them about it, why should they stop?
  - grzm 10y ago
    You're right. Some people will do nothing but respond reflexively and awfully. Some people do that only sometimes when they get particularly heated. Some people aren't aware that they're doing it and would want to be better if it's brought to their attention in a constructive way. Unfortunately humans are psychologically bent towards paying attention to the negative rather than the neutral or the positive, so we tend to remember the negative behavior, which lends itself to thinking this stuff is happening all the time and people can't change. Just calling people out on it doesn't solve the problem, either. It just pushes people further apart, which doesn't do anything to improve the behavior. If I didn't think it was worthwhile saying anything, I'd say nothing. (I was frustrated with myself yesterday because I couldn't figure out a constructive way to express myself in our interactions yesterday, btw.) And online it's easy to misinterpret the intent or meaning of what someone is saying. This happened yesterday in an interaction between me, 'adrienne, and 'Hydraulix989. Online we've only got text. We don't get to hear intonation, phrasing, facial expression, all the other information that we exchange face-to-face. I've heard somewhere that > 50% of communication is in these non-lexical channels. It makes sense to give each other the benefit of the doubt that we've misinterpreted what the other has said, if honest, mutually constructive conversation is the goal. And, yeah, there are some real jerks out there. In those cases I try to remember "don't feed the trolls". If it's particularly egregious, and I feel I can't let what they said go unanswered, I'll try to be extremely civil, let them know I'm no longer going to participate in the discussion, and then email the mods.
tptacek 10y ago
We don't have to reason through that comment; it was just trolling.

I note that tptacek uses 'I', 'me', or 'my' at least fourteen times in the comment i was responding to (i didn't count carefully), and yet he's not the one who got chastised.

grzm 10y ago

I'm plunking this comment down here at the bottom as it has to go somewhere. It's not meant to apply to any one comment among its ancestors. This whole conversation is particularly delicate. All of you care about this topic to some extent, or you wouldn't have commented. I commented because I don't want to see it descend into a flame war. If the goal is to score points or try to demonstrate bad behavior, it's unfortunately way too easy to do so, with no constructive result other than every one all around feeling that their judgements of other people are justified. I'd rather figure out if there's something to be gained by the conversation: if nothing else, to show an excess of honest civility and respect for each other as people, even if we vehemently disagree with their opinions, erring on the side of not saying anything that can possibly be construed of as unfair. Make it easier for people to say something honest and civil than get defensive and say something reflexive and knee-jerky, which is all too easy online.

ubernostrum 10y ago
Make it easier for people to say something honest and civil than get defensive and say something reflexive and knee-jerky, which is all too easy online. The problem is people are going to say reflexive, awful things no matter what. You could bury Mount Everest under the evidence of that fact at this point. So this isn't about "scoring points" -- if it were I'd just link people to the guidelines over and over again -- it's about publicly calling people out when they do this stuff. Because as long as everyone's polite to them about it, why should they stop?
- grzm 10y ago
  You're right. Some people will do nothing but respond reflexively and awfully. Some people do that only sometimes when they get particularly heated. Some people aren't aware that they're doing it and would want to be better if it's brought to their attention in a constructive way. Unfortunately humans are psychologically bent towards paying attention to the negative rather than the neutral or the positive, so we tend to remember the negative behavior, which lends itself to thinking this stuff is happening all the time and people can't change. Just calling people out on it doesn't solve the problem, either. It just pushes people further apart, which doesn't do anything to improve the behavior. If I didn't think it was worthwhile saying anything, I'd say nothing. (I was frustrated with myself yesterday because I couldn't figure out a constructive way to express myself in our interactions yesterday, btw.) And online it's easy to misinterpret the intent or meaning of what someone is saying. This happened yesterday in an interaction between me, 'adrienne, and 'Hydraulix989. Online we've only got text. We don't get to hear intonation, phrasing, facial expression, all the other information that we exchange face-to-face. I've heard somewhere that > 50% of communication is in these non-lexical channels. It makes sense to give each other the benefit of the doubt that we've misinterpreted what the other has said, if honest, mutually constructive conversation is the goal. And, yeah, there are some real jerks out there. In those cases I try to remember "don't feed the trolls". If it's particularly egregious, and I feel I can't let what they said go unanswered, I'll try to be extremely civil, let them know I'm no longer going to participate in the discussion, and then email the mods.

tptacek 10y ago

We don't have to reason through that comment; it was just trolling.