8 ms·

Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 to Support Windows 10

74 points by richardboegli 10y ago

pcr0 10y ago
The link is broken
- richardboegli 10y ago
  eetimes is having issues. HN effect? Is that a thing? Like Slashdot effect? See the Google Cache here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VM98Uf75nUYJ:www.eetimes.com/document.asp%3Fdoc_id%3D1330961+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VM98Uf7...
  - smcl 10y ago
    It's called the HN "Hug of Death" iirc
brokenmachine 10y ago
I know what OS I won't be running on my phone...
- richardboegli 10y ago
  Having Full Microsoft Office suite running on phone is a game changer. Word, Excel, Outlook, Access etc... The cut down versions which are currently on Android and iOS doesn't cover all the use cases like the full versions do. Also having Visual Studio on phone would be interesting :)
  - joshumax 10y ago
    I think Ubuntu touch got it right with convergence; phone when you want it to be, "desktop" when you need it to be. Now if only I didn't have to bring a billion cables and a keyboard with me
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    Do you think they will rename Office ?
  - gumby 10y ago
    I don't think it would be game changer. In fact I think it would be a mistake, and one that Microsoft won't make any more. The screen on a phone is simply too small, even with a keyboard. The stripped down versions aren't just stripped down because of the slower processors; your fingers are too big to be able to select all the features. Instead the portable apps let you make minor fixes in the field. I have fixed a typo on a powerpoint via my phone, but I would never want to try to do any, say, spreadsheeting on a phone, even with a BT keyboard. A tablet, well, I still doubt it but I can imagine being wrong: perhaps it's a tablet game changer. We'll see. The reason I think Microsoft won't make that mistake again is that they already tried it, both ways (full-ish apps on windows phones, and a phone interface, metro, on the PC). Both bombed, and though I'm not sure Nadella really does know what he's doing, I do know he knows that repeating that would be a mistake.
    - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
      You are missing the biggest announcement about the most recent generation of Windows Phones: It's called Continuum. Plug your phone into a monitor and a keyboard and mouse and you have a PC. ...Now one that runs full desktop software. Imagine being able to carry everything you need on your phone, and hook it up to any workstation or kiosk to continue working. Less security risks, because all the data is on your device, not anyone else's PCs or networks. And while the UI might not always be the best possible, hopefully you can use it straight from the phone in a pinch as well.
      - gumby 10y ago
        All I can say is hmm, we'll see (see a reply I wrote on another thread resulting from my experiences in trying to get even laptop, much less desktop performance on ARM). I would love to be wrong. I simply don't believe it's here yet. In addition I don't know if people really want the continuum experience rather than carrying their screen around with them. It's been tried before, but maybe those previous attempts failed due to wimpy processors.
        ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  - mtgx 10y ago
    Most of the "ground-breaking" features of the new Windows machines have turned out to be gimmicks at best, and I doubt this time is going to be any different. Take "hybrid" tablets that can turn their screen around and whatnot. Who actually uses them like that in any significant amount of time? Nobody, that's who. Most people end up using them in the laptop form factor the vast majority of the time. As for running the desktop versions of Office or Visual Studio on a 5" screen....well you can imagine all the UX problems with that. If there's anything ground-breaking here at all (and assuming there isn't a huge performance overhead - should be 10% at most, under 3% ideally), it's the fact that now ARM chip makers will be getting access to the "real" (not counting Chromebooks, where Google never tried to encourage the use of ARM anyway, despite the fact that it's architecture-agnostic, and thus doesn't even need to emulate x86 apps like Windows does) PC/notebook market. That, along with AMD's Zen, should make the PC chip market much more competitive in the next 2-3 years. That's what should really excite everyone, not some gimmicks that will never be used despite all the hype they may be getting.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Those hybrid tablets have kicked out the Android ones on display in most consumer shops here in Germany, so someone is buying them.
      - vetinari 10y ago
        The android ones proved, that no one (in Spolsky meaning of "no one") gets such a device and uses it in both modes. I had one of them, Asus Transformer, and used it as a tablet only, despite having a keyboard which served as an additional battery. It was both, worse laptop than real laptop and worse tablet than real tablet. So why purchase it at all, when you are going to use it in single mode? There are better choices on the market.
        pjc50 10y ago
        I too have one and used it with keyboard and touchscreen. And occasionally in detached mode. The "detach at hinge" feature is less critical than being both a "tablet" (usable with touchscreen only) but with a keyboard for sustained text entry. And a hinge so you don't have to prop it up.
gumby 10y ago
Don't forget that the ARM's raw performance is much less than that of Intel. Intel (and Nvidia) have chosen a price-performance-point regime that makes sense right now on the desktop (what's left of it...quite a bit!) and server. They've completely ceded mobile to ARM/Imagination. The two worlds occupy different regions of the price/performance/power cube.
- mtgx 10y ago
  Not as low as you may think. In fact, the latest high-end ARM chips have reached parity with Macbook Air-type Intel chips, as well as with few year old Mac Pros: https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/221881-apples-a9x-goes-head-to-head-against-intels-core-m-in-arm-x86-grudge-match https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/221881-apples-a9x-goes-he... http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12939310/iphone-7-a10-fusion-processor-apple-intel-future http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12939310/iphone-7-a10-fusi... EDIT: And here's a demo by Microsoft for how Windows 10 would run on the Qualcomm chip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&feature=youtu.be
  - gumby 10y ago
    I really want to switch away from Intel across the board but we are still far from there. And in fact you're not really disagreeing with my point: I said Intel & Nvidia are leading for raw power, but when you are looking at performance/watt, they are not as far ahead or even (depending) trail disastrously. Intel doesn't seem to have it in their DNA to really focus on mobile across the board. They excel on process (Si node), no question. They have the highest performance CPUs with lots of superscalar, speculative, and multicore performance, and a lot of work going into internal bus architecture. If you don't care about power consumption they seem to be pretty much the only game in town. And even on laptops, they have the rest of the infrastructure (advanced IO controllers etc) where ARM still noticeably lags. The numbers you cited were mobile chipsets vs the A9. Intel more than held its own, and these didn't get into multicore performance where most of the ARMs' performance rolls off dramatically. Yes, even Apple's. Those Intel mobile chips, much as I hate them, are more general case (see below). And of course these days most of us care about power (not enough in the datacenter, but that day is coming soon as well). On that front ARM is great. But as I noticed above they don't get the multicore advantage Intel does. Now that doesn't matter as much on a tablet since you actually want to spend as little power energizing silicon as possible. Look at the asymmetry of the A9: a huge amount of the area goes to servicing graphics (kind of the weird descendent of the Alto in this way), less on dealing with multicore bus contention. Which is what you want on a tablet! But it's less useful when, say, you're running a CAD app. And other design houses have found other points in the space: Q'comm is the only other performance leader in ARM (mediatek etc are going for lower power/fast design) and qcomm parts are notoriously power hungry too (oops). Apple is the only one who has high performance and good power consumption -- but for an execution mix that they control closely, not for the general case! Interestingly NVIDIA suffers from the same thing, but has managed to cleverly switch into a parallel track (ML with GPGPUs) which is currently also power consumption insensitive and can pay not just a higher W for performance but $ too. I can't wait for the day to arrive, but no, I don't believe that day is yet nigh. PS: this post reflects some work I did specifically in this area, unfortunately proprietary to the organization who paid for it.
fowl2 10y ago
It would be funny if MS beat Apple to ARM laptops
- dragonbonheur 10y ago
  Apple already had the eMate 300. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300 And Acorn (the company that invented ARM chips - Acorn Risc Machine) had the Acorn A4 http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/22807/Acorn-A4-Laptop/ http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/22807/Acorn-A4-Laptop... Edit: Microsoft was also already there with their Windows CE devices. And Psion and Vtech (http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/30249/Vtech-I-T-Laptop/ http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/30249/Vtech-I-T-Lapto...) also used ARM Chips in laptop form factor devices So it's not really about someone beating someone else to market, just the evolution of the market itself.
  - fattire 10y ago
    And isn't the new touchbar thing on the macbook pros also running on ARM? http://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/news/macbook-pro-2016s-touch-bar-said-to-be-controlled-by-a-secondary-arm-processor-1586858 http://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/news/macbook-pro-2016s-touch... And speaking of windows 10 on arm... what's the deal with this Windows 10 IoT Core thing? from February and how does it relate to the qcom socs? https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/02/29/windows-10-iot-core-support-for-raspberry-pi-3/ https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/02/29/windows-10...
- askvictor 10y ago
  Chromebooks?
aamederen 10y ago
Do processors support operating systems now? I thought the reverse was true.
- crazysim 10y ago
  I am guessing this is the norm in ARM. It seems much of the fires in the Android update scene can be attributed to this.
- throwaway40483 10y ago
  Many may consider parent as snark but this is a really great point. I wish the article had elaborated on this.
- Maarten88 10y ago
  The news is hidden near the end of the article. There is rumor that Microsoft is working on some sort of x86 virtualization/emulation on ARM, for their Continuum technology, and this news is that Qualcomm is building something in their ARM chips to make that possible.
  - IMcD23 10y ago
    Not a rumor anymore. They just announced they are working on it in partnership with Qualcomm and it will be available next year.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Well i could have sworn that both Intel and AMD have recently announced that they will not support anything older than Windows 10 on their products going forward...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
aymenim 10y ago
I would be interested to know how x86 programs run on the Qualcomm SoC, is it some sort of optimized emulation or x86 to ARM translation layer while simulating the system calls directly like Linux subsystem for windows, either way, it would be interesting to see how it will perform,
- arthurfm 10y ago
  > it would be interesting to see how it will perform The performance looks surprisingly good... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U
  - aymenim 10y ago
    that is fantastic, above all, I am amazed by the photoshop. great work Microsoft i can't wait to try it.
- fsiefken 10y ago
  ExaGear Desktop claims near native performance on ARM today, so I assume the performance will be similar. It will perhaps have a more significant cost in battery life. https://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desktop/ https://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desktop/
krylon 10y ago
It will be interesting to see if those ARM-based "PCs" will be supported by other operating systems (think: Debian, OpenBSD), too. Also, I am curious what types of devices we can expect. Something along the lines of a Raspberry Pi, but with more RAM and an SSD would be very nice!
ohstopitu 10y ago
Microsoft released a video[0] of this working on an Snapdragon 820 yesterday. I was extremely impressed with the fact that they were able to run a win32 app on it without any modification. The future of Intel / AMD is definitely going to be very interesting to say the least. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U

74 points by richardboegli 10y ago

pcr0 10y ago

The link is broken

richardboegli 10y ago
eetimes is having issues. HN effect? Is that a thing? Like Slashdot effect? See the Google Cache here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VM98Uf75nUYJ:www.eetimes.com/document.asp%3Fdoc_id%3D1330961+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VM98Uf7...
- smcl 10y ago
  It's called the HN "Hug of Death" iirc

brokenmachine 10y ago

I know what OS I won't be running on my phone...

richardboegli 10y ago
Having Full Microsoft Office suite running on phone is a game changer. Word, Excel, Outlook, Access etc... The cut down versions which are currently on Android and iOS doesn't cover all the use cases like the full versions do. Also having Visual Studio on phone would be interesting :)
- joshumax 10y ago
  I think Ubuntu touch got it right with convergence; phone when you want it to be, "desktop" when you need it to be. Now if only I didn't have to bring a billion cables and a keyboard with me
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Do you think they will rename Office ?
- gumby 10y ago
  I don't think it would be game changer. In fact I think it would be a mistake, and one that Microsoft won't make any more. The screen on a phone is simply too small, even with a keyboard. The stripped down versions aren't just stripped down because of the slower processors; your fingers are too big to be able to select all the features. Instead the portable apps let you make minor fixes in the field. I have fixed a typo on a powerpoint via my phone, but I would never want to try to do any, say, spreadsheeting on a phone, even with a BT keyboard. A tablet, well, I still doubt it but I can imagine being wrong: perhaps it's a tablet game changer. We'll see. The reason I think Microsoft won't make that mistake again is that they already tried it, both ways (full-ish apps on windows phones, and a phone interface, metro, on the PC). Both bombed, and though I'm not sure Nadella really does know what he's doing, I do know he knows that repeating that would be a mistake.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    You are missing the biggest announcement about the most recent generation of Windows Phones: It's called Continuum. Plug your phone into a monitor and a keyboard and mouse and you have a PC. ...Now one that runs full desktop software. Imagine being able to carry everything you need on your phone, and hook it up to any workstation or kiosk to continue working. Less security risks, because all the data is on your device, not anyone else's PCs or networks. And while the UI might not always be the best possible, hopefully you can use it straight from the phone in a pinch as well.
    - gumby 10y ago
      All I can say is hmm, we'll see (see a reply I wrote on another thread resulting from my experiences in trying to get even laptop, much less desktop performance on ARM). I would love to be wrong. I simply don't believe it's here yet. In addition I don't know if people really want the continuum experience rather than carrying their screen around with them. It's been tried before, but maybe those previous attempts failed due to wimpy processors.
      - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
- mtgx 10y ago
  Most of the "ground-breaking" features of the new Windows machines have turned out to be gimmicks at best, and I doubt this time is going to be any different. Take "hybrid" tablets that can turn their screen around and whatnot. Who actually uses them like that in any significant amount of time? Nobody, that's who. Most people end up using them in the laptop form factor the vast majority of the time. As for running the desktop versions of Office or Visual Studio on a 5" screen....well you can imagine all the UX problems with that. If there's anything ground-breaking here at all (and assuming there isn't a huge performance overhead - should be 10% at most, under 3% ideally), it's the fact that now ARM chip makers will be getting access to the "real" (not counting Chromebooks, where Google never tried to encourage the use of ARM anyway, despite the fact that it's architecture-agnostic, and thus doesn't even need to emulate x86 apps like Windows does) PC/notebook market. That, along with AMD's Zen, should make the PC chip market much more competitive in the next 2-3 years. That's what should really excite everyone, not some gimmicks that will never be used despite all the hype they may be getting.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Those hybrid tablets have kicked out the Android ones on display in most consumer shops here in Germany, so someone is buying them.
    - vetinari 10y ago
      The android ones proved, that no one (in Spolsky meaning of "no one") gets such a device and uses it in both modes. I had one of them, Asus Transformer, and used it as a tablet only, despite having a keyboard which served as an additional battery. It was both, worse laptop than real laptop and worse tablet than real tablet. So why purchase it at all, when you are going to use it in single mode? There are better choices on the market.
      - pjc50 10y ago
        I too have one and used it with keyboard and touchscreen. And occasionally in detached mode. The "detach at hinge" feature is less critical than being both a "tablet" (usable with touchscreen only) but with a keyboard for sustained text entry. And a hinge so you don't have to prop it up.

gumby 10y ago

Don't forget that the ARM's raw performance is much less than that of Intel. Intel (and Nvidia) have chosen a price-performance-point regime that makes sense right now on the desktop (what's left of it...quite a bit!) and server. They've completely ceded mobile to ARM/Imagination. The two worlds occupy different regions of the price/performance/power cube.

mtgx 10y ago
Not as low as you may think. In fact, the latest high-end ARM chips have reached parity with Macbook Air-type Intel chips, as well as with few year old Mac Pros: https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/221881-apples-a9x-goes-head-to-head-against-intels-core-m-in-arm-x86-grudge-match https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/221881-apples-a9x-goes-he... http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12939310/iphone-7-a10-fusion-processor-apple-intel-future http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12939310/iphone-7-a10-fusi... EDIT: And here's a demo by Microsoft for how Windows 10 would run on the Qualcomm chip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&feature=youtu.be
- gumby 10y ago
  I really want to switch away from Intel across the board but we are still far from there. And in fact you're not really disagreeing with my point: I said Intel & Nvidia are leading for raw power, but when you are looking at performance/watt, they are not as far ahead or even (depending) trail disastrously. Intel doesn't seem to have it in their DNA to really focus on mobile across the board. They excel on process (Si node), no question. They have the highest performance CPUs with lots of superscalar, speculative, and multicore performance, and a lot of work going into internal bus architecture. If you don't care about power consumption they seem to be pretty much the only game in town. And even on laptops, they have the rest of the infrastructure (advanced IO controllers etc) where ARM still noticeably lags. The numbers you cited were mobile chipsets vs the A9. Intel more than held its own, and these didn't get into multicore performance where most of the ARMs' performance rolls off dramatically. Yes, even Apple's. Those Intel mobile chips, much as I hate them, are more general case (see below). And of course these days most of us care about power (not enough in the datacenter, but that day is coming soon as well). On that front ARM is great. But as I noticed above they don't get the multicore advantage Intel does. Now that doesn't matter as much on a tablet since you actually want to spend as little power energizing silicon as possible. Look at the asymmetry of the A9: a huge amount of the area goes to servicing graphics (kind of the weird descendent of the Alto in this way), less on dealing with multicore bus contention. Which is what you want on a tablet! But it's less useful when, say, you're running a CAD app. And other design houses have found other points in the space: Q'comm is the only other performance leader in ARM (mediatek etc are going for lower power/fast design) and qcomm parts are notoriously power hungry too (oops). Apple is the only one who has high performance and good power consumption -- but for an execution mix that they control closely, not for the general case! Interestingly NVIDIA suffers from the same thing, but has managed to cleverly switch into a parallel track (ML with GPGPUs) which is currently also power consumption insensitive and can pay not just a higher W for performance but $ too. I can't wait for the day to arrive, but no, I don't believe that day is yet nigh. PS: this post reflects some work I did specifically in this area, unfortunately proprietary to the organization who paid for it.

fowl2 10y ago

It would be funny if MS beat Apple to ARM laptops

dragonbonheur 10y ago
Apple already had the eMate 300. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300 And Acorn (the company that invented ARM chips - Acorn Risc Machine) had the Acorn A4 http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/22807/Acorn-A4-Laptop/ http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/22807/Acorn-A4-Laptop... Edit: Microsoft was also already there with their Windows CE devices. And Psion and Vtech (http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/30249/Vtech-I-T-Laptop/ http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/30249/Vtech-I-T-Lapto...) also used ARM Chips in laptop form factor devices So it's not really about someone beating someone else to market, just the evolution of the market itself.
- fattire 10y ago
  And isn't the new touchbar thing on the macbook pros also running on ARM? http://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/news/macbook-pro-2016s-touch-bar-said-to-be-controlled-by-a-secondary-arm-processor-1586858 http://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/news/macbook-pro-2016s-touch... And speaking of windows 10 on arm... what's the deal with this Windows 10 IoT Core thing? from February and how does it relate to the qcom socs? https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/02/29/windows-10-iot-core-support-for-raspberry-pi-3/ https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/02/29/windows-10...
askvictor 10y ago
Chromebooks?

aamederen 10y ago

Do processors support operating systems now? I thought the reverse was true.

crazysim 10y ago
I am guessing this is the norm in ARM. It seems much of the fires in the Android update scene can be attributed to this.
throwaway40483 10y ago
Many may consider parent as snark but this is a really great point. I wish the article had elaborated on this.
Maarten88 10y ago
The news is hidden near the end of the article. There is rumor that Microsoft is working on some sort of x86 virtualization/emulation on ARM, for their Continuum technology, and this news is that Qualcomm is building something in their ARM chips to make that possible.
- IMcD23 10y ago
  Not a rumor anymore. They just announced they are working on it in partnership with Qualcomm and it will be available next year.
digi_owl 10y ago
Well i could have sworn that both Intel and AMD have recently announced that they will not support anything older than Windows 10 on their products going forward...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

aymenim 10y ago

I would be interested to know how x86 programs run on the Qualcomm SoC, is it some sort of optimized emulation or x86 to ARM translation layer while simulating the system calls directly like Linux subsystem for windows, either way, it would be interesting to see how it will perform,

arthurfm 10y ago
> it would be interesting to see how it will perform The performance looks surprisingly good... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U
- aymenim 10y ago
  that is fantastic, above all, I am amazed by the photoshop. great work Microsoft i can't wait to try it.
fsiefken 10y ago
ExaGear Desktop claims near native performance on ARM today, so I assume the performance will be similar. It will perhaps have a more significant cost in battery life. https://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desktop/ https://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desktop/

krylon 10y ago

It will be interesting to see if those ARM-based "PCs" will be supported by other operating systems (think: Debian, OpenBSD), too. Also, I am curious what types of devices we can expect. Something along the lines of a Raspberry Pi, but with more RAM and an SSD would be very nice!

ohstopitu 10y ago

Microsoft released a video[0] of this working on an Snapdragon 820 yesterday. I was extremely impressed with the fact that they were able to run a win32 app on it without any modification. The future of Intel / AMD is definitely going to be very interesting to say the least. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U