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At least speaking for myself, I can't complain; an invader or conqueror can still feel foreign after centuries have passed. If the Irish can throw off the Saxon

At least speaking for myself, I can't complain; an invader or conqueror can still feel foreign after centuries have passed. If the Irish can throw off the Saxon yoke after "Eight Hundred Years of Oppression" (roughly 1250-1950), I think the Indians can do the same. (EDIT: Not with the literal Saxon yoke, although they did have occasion to free themselves of England...) Islam in the Subcontinent is at least as much an invasive, alien presence as England in Celtic Britain (or England in all of Britain, when you consider Anglo-Saxon origins), or Germans in the Slavic world -- or the US in the US, for that matter. EDIT: But there are entries here about "Indian breads" that originate at the Mughal court, derived from Afghan or other Islamic traditions. Those aren't Indian breads if naan isn't!

tptacek 10y ago
They're Indian in the same sense that New York City pizza is American and not Italian --- it would be silly to call NYC pizza "Italian", as it's an indigenous American dish that is merely inspired by an Italian predecessor. A good acid test is, did Indian culinary culture substantially alter the dish? In the case of naan, no, it probably didn't. In other cases, more so.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "it would be silly to call NYC pizza "Italian", as it's an indigenous American dish that is merely inspired by an Italian predecessor" What makes NYC pizza its own food type? There might be some minor differences like the type of dough commonly used, but I remember NYC pizza being fairly conventional (larger than average slices, not much else to distinguish it). If NYC pizza is American, you could use the same logic to state that curry was British. There are regional variations of curry that were popularised in Britain. However, it doesn't seem right to claim them as solely British, considering most of the culinary innovation that led up to these dishes happened elsewhere.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Some British curry dishes --- tikka masala, for instance --- really are distinctively British.
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      Tikka masala was one of the dishes I had in mind. However, it still doesn't seem right to call it British. The culinary heritage of the dish is Bangladeshi (I believe the people who invented it were from Bangladesh, feel free to correct me), they just built on that heritage with a dish for the clientele they had at the time. Similar questions can be raised about the kebab, whether its Turkish and/or German. Is the nationality of the originating chefs more or less important than the nationality of the audience they're trying to please?
      - tptacek 10y ago
        It's so British that it's been called the National Dish of England! The key issue is that the dish was developed in England, for an audience of English diners.
        ZenoArrow 10y ago
        >"It's so British that it's been called the National Dish of England!" Come on man, that's just a marketing thing, it doesn't have any genuine cultural significance. >"The key issue is that the dish was developed in England, for an audience of English diners." You're ignoring my questions. Does the origin of the chefs hold no weight in your mind? Furthermore, I'm British, and I've had plenty of curries in my time. Tikka Masala does not stick out amongst curries as something particularly different to the rest, and if there was something 'British' about it that difference should be noticeable. It's the same thing with NYC pizza, there's basically nothing that sets it apart from pizza found elsewhere.
  - shostack 10y ago
    What makes NY pizza unique to NY? The grease, lack of good crust and soaked cardboard consistency mostly. I'm from Chicago though so I'm probably not the best person to ask about NY pizza since we have different preferences there ;)
    - tptacek 10y ago
      We make a fine pizza-flavored cassarole.

tptacek 10y ago

They're Indian in the same sense that New York City pizza is American and not Italian --- it would be silly to call NYC pizza "Italian", as it's an indigenous American dish that is merely inspired by an Italian predecessor. A good acid test is, did Indian culinary culture substantially alter the dish? In the case of naan, no, it probably didn't. In other cases, more so.

ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "it would be silly to call NYC pizza "Italian", as it's an indigenous American dish that is merely inspired by an Italian predecessor" What makes NYC pizza its own food type? There might be some minor differences like the type of dough commonly used, but I remember NYC pizza being fairly conventional (larger than average slices, not much else to distinguish it). If NYC pizza is American, you could use the same logic to state that curry was British. There are regional variations of curry that were popularised in Britain. However, it doesn't seem right to claim them as solely British, considering most of the culinary innovation that led up to these dishes happened elsewhere.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Some British curry dishes --- tikka masala, for instance --- really are distinctively British.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    Tikka masala was one of the dishes I had in mind. However, it still doesn't seem right to call it British. The culinary heritage of the dish is Bangladeshi (I believe the people who invented it were from Bangladesh, feel free to correct me), they just built on that heritage with a dish for the clientele they had at the time. Similar questions can be raised about the kebab, whether its Turkish and/or German. Is the nationality of the originating chefs more or less important than the nationality of the audience they're trying to please?
    - tptacek 10y ago
      It's so British that it's been called the National Dish of England! The key issue is that the dish was developed in England, for an audience of English diners.
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
        >"It's so British that it's been called the National Dish of England!" Come on man, that's just a marketing thing, it doesn't have any genuine cultural significance. >"The key issue is that the dish was developed in England, for an audience of English diners." You're ignoring my questions. Does the origin of the chefs hold no weight in your mind? Furthermore, I'm British, and I've had plenty of curries in my time. Tikka Masala does not stick out amongst curries as something particularly different to the rest, and if there was something 'British' about it that difference should be noticeable. It's the same thing with NYC pizza, there's basically nothing that sets it apart from pizza found elsewhere.
- shostack 10y ago
  What makes NY pizza unique to NY? The grease, lack of good crust and soaked cardboard consistency mostly. I'm from Chicago though so I'm probably not the best person to ask about NY pizza since we have different preferences there ;)
  - tptacek 10y ago
    We make a fine pizza-flavored cassarole.