I'm not talking about a CS degree, or "computer science" classes, but something more along the lines of engineering/software engineering. Also, I think we can

I'm not talking about a CS degree, or "computer science" classes, but something more along the lines of engineering/software engineering. Also, I think we can agree that there are people from all sorts of degrees, bootcamps, certificate programs, and other assorted methods of education, who can't code their way out of a wet paper bag.