5 ms·

> Make a deal with competitors. Contact your major competitors in the region and agree to not head-hunt their programmers if they don't touch yours. If they rej

by devoply 10y ago

> Make a deal with competitors. Contact your major competitors in the region and agree to not head-hunt their programmers if they don't touch yours. If they reject this deal, try to recruit a few of their key engineers. Just offer to double their salaries. You won't really hire them, of course, but this move will definitely shake your local market, and competitors will be afraid of you. They will agree to never touch your slaves developers. illegal.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
Steve Jobs did it anyways EDIT: Why the downvotes? This above is demonstrably factual, and it doesn't necessarily imply that I _think_ that it should be legal nor that I think it was right for him to do it.
- devoply 10y ago
  Just because a criminal commits a crime and gets away with it, and they still had to pay millions in settlement, does not mean that it's any less legal to do it. If you are not Apple, Google, et. al. that can afford millions of dollars in penalties, then I suggest you don't break the law. The 4 tech giants paid 345 million in fines for this.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    At the time, I'm sure that the math worked out for each party involved though -- $80M per company sounds a lot less than the cost of losing crucial staff members to poaching, that's actually less than the cost of most of their real acquisitions (remember, there is lost knowledge, mindshare, and costs associated with re-hiring and training -- I've heard that it costs upwards of $100k to hire a single engineer at a big company, and then it can take up to a year for them to ramp up depending on the scope of the project that they're working on), AND there's a HUGE cost if you have to pay every single engineer a substantially higher salary. You can't just slot in a new replacement body like changing a tire and then immediately start driving away full throttle whenever you lose a key engineer. Our jobs are so nuanced, and there's a ton of arcane internal knowledge that each person has that took a ton of time to build up and wasn't ever documented (a lot of the most valuable IP doesn't ever leave peoples' heads). Not to mention, there are specialized "your company only" skills and human relationships that people develop that are only applicable to YOUR company that also took a lot of time and experience to build up. This is why I actually think it is worthwhile for HR to always give a counter-offer whenever an engineer decides to leave. Plus, they thought they could get away with it. On a parting note, calling Steve Jobs a criminal is certainly a debatable accusation 'round these parts.
- tn13 10y ago
  Upvoted. Looks like people here have not understood that the original tone of the post is that of satire. Besides just because government does not allow something does not mean companies don't do it. If a large reputed company like Apple and Google did it clearly smaller fish must be easily passing through regulatory net. Did Apple and Google fire anyone over the episode ? Late Steve Job continues to be a tech icon. All companies are required to interview American candidates for every H1B they hire by law. Are you saying they genuinely wish to kick out the Indian guy they have already interviewed if they find an American person or is it just one bullet point on the lawyer's list of things ? Real world != What government allows.
tzs 10y ago
Talking to competitors to make, or even (if I recall correctly) to propose, such a deal is illegal but you might be able to effectively make a deal without talking to them and without running afoul of the law. Just unilaterally make it your policy to not recruit from competitors, unless they recruit someone from you, in which case you recruit one person from them for everyone they recruited from you, and then return to not recruiting from them. If they are observant they will figure out that you are using the tit for tat strategy and that they can probably maximize their benefit by not recruiting from you.
- devoply 10y ago
  Tacit collusion is also illegal in the US. In your case you are actually documenting it in your policy. It's easy for any lawyer to draw the conclusion and prove it in court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion
  - gozur88 10y ago
    That's true, but if you don't document it you'll likely have no trouble getting away with it.
    - devoply 10y ago
      Maybe. Maybe not. You are still committing a crime. These days everything leaves evidence. And when more than one person is involved there are an infinite number of opportunities for a leak. As detectives say, you only have to mess up once, and that's why I will catch you.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    This happens ALL OF THE TIME in the Bay Area. There's certain companies that other companies' HR departments regard as "no fly zones" because of some undisclosed reason or another.
tn13 10y ago
Did not stop Apple from doing it.
st3v3r 10y ago
When has that ever mattered? Especially now that this is Trump's America.

by devoply 10y ago

Hydraulix989 10y ago

Steve Jobs did it anyways EDIT: Why the downvotes? This above is demonstrably factual, and it doesn't necessarily imply that I _think_ that it should be legal nor that I think it was right for him to do it.

devoply 10y ago
Just because a criminal commits a crime and gets away with it, and they still had to pay millions in settlement, does not mean that it's any less legal to do it. If you are not Apple, Google, et. al. that can afford millions of dollars in penalties, then I suggest you don't break the law. The 4 tech giants paid 345 million in fines for this.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  At the time, I'm sure that the math worked out for each party involved though -- $80M per company sounds a lot less than the cost of losing crucial staff members to poaching, that's actually less than the cost of most of their real acquisitions (remember, there is lost knowledge, mindshare, and costs associated with re-hiring and training -- I've heard that it costs upwards of $100k to hire a single engineer at a big company, and then it can take up to a year for them to ramp up depending on the scope of the project that they're working on), AND there's a HUGE cost if you have to pay every single engineer a substantially higher salary. You can't just slot in a new replacement body like changing a tire and then immediately start driving away full throttle whenever you lose a key engineer. Our jobs are so nuanced, and there's a ton of arcane internal knowledge that each person has that took a ton of time to build up and wasn't ever documented (a lot of the most valuable IP doesn't ever leave peoples' heads). Not to mention, there are specialized "your company only" skills and human relationships that people develop that are only applicable to YOUR company that also took a lot of time and experience to build up. This is why I actually think it is worthwhile for HR to always give a counter-offer whenever an engineer decides to leave. Plus, they thought they could get away with it. On a parting note, calling Steve Jobs a criminal is certainly a debatable accusation 'round these parts.
tn13 10y ago
Upvoted. Looks like people here have not understood that the original tone of the post is that of satire. Besides just because government does not allow something does not mean companies don't do it. If a large reputed company like Apple and Google did it clearly smaller fish must be easily passing through regulatory net. Did Apple and Google fire anyone over the episode ? Late Steve Job continues to be a tech icon. All companies are required to interview American candidates for every H1B they hire by law. Are you saying they genuinely wish to kick out the Indian guy they have already interviewed if they find an American person or is it just one bullet point on the lawyer's list of things ? Real world != What government allows.

tzs 10y ago

Talking to competitors to make, or even (if I recall correctly) to propose, such a deal is illegal but you might be able to effectively make a deal without talking to them and without running afoul of the law. Just unilaterally make it your policy to not recruit from competitors, unless they recruit someone from you, in which case you recruit one person from them for everyone they recruited from you, and then return to not recruiting from them. If they are observant they will figure out that you are using the tit for tat strategy and that they can probably maximize their benefit by not recruiting from you.

devoply 10y ago
Tacit collusion is also illegal in the US. In your case you are actually documenting it in your policy. It's easy for any lawyer to draw the conclusion and prove it in court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion
- gozur88 10y ago
  That's true, but if you don't document it you'll likely have no trouble getting away with it.
  - devoply 10y ago
    Maybe. Maybe not. You are still committing a crime. These days everything leaves evidence. And when more than one person is involved there are an infinite number of opportunities for a leak. As detectives say, you only have to mess up once, and that's why I will catch you.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  This happens ALL OF THE TIME in the Bay Area. There's certain companies that other companies' HR departments regard as "no fly zones" because of some undisclosed reason or another.

tn13 10y ago

Did not stop Apple from doing it.

st3v3r 10y ago

When has that ever mattered? Especially now that this is Trump's America.