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> Google is a much much larger energy consumer That seems implausible. The electrical requirements of Aluminum production are extreme. Obviously there's a lot

by CPLX 10y ago

> Google is a much much larger energy consumer That seems implausible. The electrical requirements of Aluminum production are extreme. Obviously there's a lot of issues about where one draws the line between the company and its subcontractors and so on, but it seems hard to believe Apple's global energy footprint is not higher than Google's

mda 10y ago
I didn't know Apple produced its own aluminum.
- IBM 10y ago
  Apple includes their suppliers, retail stores, offices, and customers' product use in their carbon footprint (in addition to data centers) [1]: When we measure our carbon footprint, we include hundreds of suppliers, millions of customers, and hundreds of millions of devices. And we’re always looking for ways to make the biggest difference in five major areas: manufacturing, product use, facilities, transportation, and recycling. [1] http://www.apple.com/environment/climate-change/ http://www.apple.com/environment/climate-change/
  - low_battery 10y ago
    Edit: Correction by 3 orders of magnitude because of multiplication error :) Then lets do a back of the envelope calculation for energy consumption for Apple's aluminum use. Very roughly Apple sells ~25 million macs and ~200 million iphones per year. Again lets assume that it needs 2kg of aluminum for macbooks and 100g for phones (not all iphones are aluminum and this might be lower), that makes ~70 thousand metric tonnes of aluminum. Modern smelters use 13KW/h to produce 1 kilogram of aluminum, but their production involves recycled aluminum (and possibly shavings from milling?) so number should be lower, lets say it is 10KWH per kilo. This makes 70M*10KWh = 700GW/h year Google's datacenter energy consumption, is difficult to guess, if there are 1 million servers, and assuming each server consumes 10KWH per day, then it makes ~3.5 TWH per year. This is apples to oranges of course, aluminum vs server running energy costs, but still kinda implies that Google uses more energy, at least directly.
    - kwhitefoot 10y ago
      kWh not kW/h
    - magicalist 10y ago
      > Google's datacenter energy consumption, is difficult to guess, if there are 1 million servers, and assuming each server consumes 10KWH per day, then it makes ~3.5 TWH per year FWIW, the linked article mentions > The 5.7 terawatt-hours of electricity Google consumed in 2015 “is equal to the output of two 500 megawatt coal plants,” said Jonathan Koomey though they don't mention the source
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  No--it's probally bought very reasonably in China, or whomever offers the cheapest quote, and the best aluminum? When one claims to be a saint, it's human nature to to look up and down the chain. Especially, at what they charge? This is one company I don't give a free pass to anymore. (I did hear they bought the best aluminum from Australia a few years ago.)
- SamBam 10y ago
  The question is whether Apple's products affect the amount of aluminum extracted. If it does, then that aluminum's footprint belongs to Apple. Likewise, you couldn't just keep buying big batteries from third parties to power all your needs, and claim to have no carbon footprint because you didn't make the batteries.
low_battery 10y ago
Why? Aluminum production needs a lot of electricity but if you recycle back, costs goes down, total aluminum energy cost of Apple is likely much lower than all those servers running throughout the year.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Recycling rates are generally pretty low. I think the highesst rates have been ~80% for lead (batteries). For aluminium in the US, it's closer to 40% IIRC. USGS has online reports. http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/recycle/recymyb01.pdf http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/recycle/rec... 40% ~2001 For 2015, it looks as of 30% of supply came via recycling: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/ http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/ http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/mcs-2016-alumi.pdf http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/mc...

by CPLX 10y ago

mda 10y ago

I didn't know Apple produced its own aluminum.

IBM 10y ago
Apple includes their suppliers, retail stores, offices, and customers' product use in their carbon footprint (in addition to data centers) [1]: When we measure our carbon footprint, we include hundreds of suppliers, millions of customers, and hundreds of millions of devices. And we’re always looking for ways to make the biggest difference in five major areas: manufacturing, product use, facilities, transportation, and recycling. [1] http://www.apple.com/environment/climate-change/ http://www.apple.com/environment/climate-change/
- low_battery 10y ago
  Edit: Correction by 3 orders of magnitude because of multiplication error :) Then lets do a back of the envelope calculation for energy consumption for Apple's aluminum use. Very roughly Apple sells ~25 million macs and ~200 million iphones per year. Again lets assume that it needs 2kg of aluminum for macbooks and 100g for phones (not all iphones are aluminum and this might be lower), that makes ~70 thousand metric tonnes of aluminum. Modern smelters use 13KW/h to produce 1 kilogram of aluminum, but their production involves recycled aluminum (and possibly shavings from milling?) so number should be lower, lets say it is 10KWH per kilo. This makes 70M*10KWh = 700GW/h year Google's datacenter energy consumption, is difficult to guess, if there are 1 million servers, and assuming each server consumes 10KWH per day, then it makes ~3.5 TWH per year. This is apples to oranges of course, aluminum vs server running energy costs, but still kinda implies that Google uses more energy, at least directly.
  - kwhitefoot 10y ago
    kWh not kW/h
  - magicalist 10y ago
    > Google's datacenter energy consumption, is difficult to guess, if there are 1 million servers, and assuming each server consumes 10KWH per day, then it makes ~3.5 TWH per year FWIW, the linked article mentions > The 5.7 terawatt-hours of electricity Google consumed in 2015 “is equal to the output of two 500 megawatt coal plants,” said Jonathan Koomey though they don't mention the source
icantdrive55 10y ago
No--it's probally bought very reasonably in China, or whomever offers the cheapest quote, and the best aluminum? When one claims to be a saint, it's human nature to to look up and down the chain. Especially, at what they charge? This is one company I don't give a free pass to anymore. (I did hear they bought the best aluminum from Australia a few years ago.)
SamBam 10y ago
The question is whether Apple's products affect the amount of aluminum extracted. If it does, then that aluminum's footprint belongs to Apple. Likewise, you couldn't just keep buying big batteries from third parties to power all your needs, and claim to have no carbon footprint because you didn't make the batteries.

low_battery 10y ago

Why? Aluminum production needs a lot of electricity but if you recycle back, costs goes down, total aluminum energy cost of Apple is likely much lower than all those servers running throughout the year.

dredmorbius 10y ago
Recycling rates are generally pretty low. I think the highesst rates have been ~80% for lead (batteries). For aluminium in the US, it's closer to 40% IIRC. USGS has online reports. http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/recycle/recymyb01.pdf http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/recycle/rec... 40% ~2001 For 2015, it looks as of 30% of supply came via recycling: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/ http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/ http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/mcs-2016-alumi.pdf http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/aluminum/mc...