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The sad truth about depressive realism (2006) [pdf]
- nekopa 10y agoCan someone add pdf to the title?
- betenoire 10y agowhy? the text is right there on the page if you scroll down at all
- gtirloni 10y agoDrawbacks usually outweigh benefits in this case.
- aantix 10y agoMichael Abrash once told about a study where the participants were shown a ball on the screen and the idea was to push the controller up, in an effort to keep the ball above a virtual line in the middle of the screen. The first group was unknowingly given full control of the ball via the control, the second randomly was given some control, the third group had no control. Only those with a depression diagnosis were able to properly assess when they had no control. Wish I could find the original source..
- carbocation 10y agoProbably Alloy & Abramson, 1979, cited in the article posted above: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/528910 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/528910
- sz4kerto 10y agoI shared this with my partner as I often (somewhat jokingly, somewhat seriously) say that I'm not depressed, just realistic. But then she has just published a paper about non-reproducible psychology papers :)
- samstave 10y agoCan you reproduce her paper? As a stocking stuffer for xmas...
- whatshisface 10y agoCuriously, overestimating leads to the correct behavior here: since attempting to control the ball has no cost, the only bad outcome would be deciding to not control it when you could have done so. This can be avoided by always attempting to control it. I wonder if the result of the study would persist if inaction was sometimes the right choice?
- samirillian 10y agoGets back to the distinction between life as puzzle and life as game. Depressives may be better puzzle solvers, but optimists play the game better. Edit - or the distinction between the picture-theory of language and the tool-theory. Depressives draw a more accurate picture but optimists make better use of the "tools"
- mamon 10y agoWhich is why the optimal strategy is to be optimist most of the time, but fall into depressive mood when we encounter a lot of obstacles. Use that depressive time to assess your situation and then start changing it, fueled by your normal optimism. The issue is, if the obstacles we encounter are too many then we remain in low mood for too long, and that state becomes permament. Early in human evolution, when we were all living at savanah all the dangers and obstacles were short-term. This is entirely different in civilized society.
- dfischer 10y agoWow I really enjoyed reading your first paragraph. Thanks.
- thesimpsons1022 10y agodo you know that depression is a real disease and not some frame of mind you can choose to be in or excuse at will? i get the point of your post but the terminology is really wrong.
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- samstave 10y agoCan you explain how this works? Why? Further, what was different in each group amongst their constituent members who did/did not have depression? Did each subset perform differently within each group?
- rubicon33 10y agoThere's a great book called "Learned Optimism" which at one point talks about a very similar phenomenon, established by research. The gist of it is that depressed people perceive reality more accurately. The author posits that it's one of the reasons who depression even exists. The world is a nasty, brutal place, and interpreting it accurately has its advantages, especially in our early evolutionary time period.
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- rootedbox 10y agoThis is why i'm so concise on Mondays.
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- jfrankamp 10y agoThis makes me think: is depression a human societal defense mechanism? Having a diversity of perspectives along an optimism scale seems optimal when faced with an external threat to your tribe/group.
- spangry 10y agoI guess you'd have to sustain the argument for group selection in general first. On the individual level, it wouldn't surprise me if the more 'seasonal' variations of depression are an evolved resource conservation strategy (now maladaptive), in a season (winter) when 'pickings are slim'. I always have to remind myself that evolution doesn't optimise for happiness.
- throwaway7312 10y agoAnimals get depressed, and manifest all the same behavior patterns humans do during depression. It's a much older phenomenon than human society. There are a number of good theories on what the function of depression is. The best I've seen is that it's the brain's deep problem-solving mode for when an organism needs to hunker down and deal with hard problems it doesn't know how to solve easily. The mind slips into rumination mode and turns a problem over again and again in hopes of discovering some new insight about it and cracking it.
- bumblebeard 10y agoThere doesn't need to be a "function;" the conclusion of the paper puts it pretty well: "In summary, compared to nondepressed indi- viduals, depressives are “nay-sayers”. Depressives may be sadder but they are not wiser; rather, so- called “depressive realism” results from the bias of depressives to say “no”" Cell division is obviously important for organisms to function, but it can run amok - that's cancer. Similarly, pessimism is sometimes a useful approach to solving a problem, but it becomes debilitating when it's out of control. Depression is not a "problem solving mode" or anything like that; it's a disease. Depression (the medical condition, not just pessimism or being sad sometimes) is totally and completely draining. Someone who is depressed does not have the energy to solve the problem of "should I take a shower today," let alone "hunker down and deal with hard problems." Sorry to pick on you, I just find the comment threads on articles like this so frustratingly ignorant sometimes.
- pierrec 10y agoIf everyone knew about this, democracy might be more effective. We would only elect depressed people to positions of power, favoring their superior acumen. The most convincing speeches would be nihilist considerations on the uselessness of trying and the futility of life, then we would know, "this is the one who sees things as they are". One issue, though, might be that the military commander in chief might try to use that power against themselves. Edit: Reading further into the article, it seems my utopia is actually unrealistic, how unfortunate.
- gerbilly 10y ago>We would only elect depressed people to positions of power, favoring their superior acumen. Like Abraham Lincoln for example? He was famously depressed, and thought after he gave it that the famous Gettysburg Address was a dud. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/10/lincolns-great-depression/304247/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/10/lincolns...
- spangry 10y agoWinston Churchill is another good example of a depressed (or possibly bipolar) leader (Churchill's "black dog"). Interesting that they are both war-time leaders. On Lincoln, the recorded remarks of a fellow Illinois legislator are particularly interesting (from the article): "He Sought company, and indulged in fun and hilarity without restraint, or Stint as to time[.] Still when by himself, he told me that he was so overcome with mental depression, that he never dare carry a knife in his pocket."
- hash-set 10y agoI think a simple alcohol and drug screen of candidates would do wonders. You would be amazed how many politicians are full blown, abusive alcoholics.
- gragas 10y ago>We would only elect depressed people to positions of power, favoring their superior acumen. Or you could elect intelligent non-depressed people. Being depressed is not a qualifier for being intelligent.
- NumberCruncher 10y agoSome people - they don't call themselves psychiatrist on purpose - say that depression is not a (mental) illness but a normal human reaction to "abuse". The Psychopath Code by Hintjens [1] describes how different entities (persons, societies, government, etc.) can "abuse" you. Putting the two things together gives an interesting view on depression. For me it is not surprising that people who have been "abused" in the past don't get fooled that easy the second time. IMHO the persons who successful overcome depression acquire some kind of "super power". The power which comes also with stoicism. [1] https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/psychopathcode/details https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/psychopathcode/details
- drzaiusapelord 10y agoI'm sorry but this is just crazy talk, no pun intended. My depression has hurt me in so many ways even if I'm 'over' it. It hasn't made me this world-weary stoic, it has hurt my ability to be an effective person, relate with others, socialize, be optimistic, etc. There's no silver lining to it. I think a lot of these extremist opinions are very dangerous and on the level of anti-vax stuff because they can cause death. 2% to 9% of people that have been diagnosed with depression in their lifetime will go on to complete suicide. These are non-trivial numbers. http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/depression/a/suiciderates.htm http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/depression/a/suiciderates.h...
- NumberCruncher 10y agoOk, let me elaborate the opinion of the few non-psychiatrists I mentioned. They say that people with depression need professional help, but they have a nonorthodox definition of "help". If you are opressed by a dictatoric goverment the "help" can be leaving the country and getting your family out there. If you are in a bad relationship you can break up. If you have a soul-sucking job you can resign. These are all depressing situations you "are allowed to" feel depressed about because this is the normal human reaction to them. But getting out of them can help you.
- david-given 10y ago
- TheCycoONE 10y agoDid people read the same article I did. The conclusion was depressive realism is missattributed pessimism, not some sort of objectivity super power.
- drzaiusapelord 10y agoSadly, the reddit/HN hivemind has decided the stoicism is the current hot fad for young male techies and anything that remotely sounds like a positive for it will be trumped up as justification for it. This article is being misrepresented to promote that view.
- myowncrapulence 10y agoLots of generalizations here. You sound bitter about something.
- mark_edward 10y agoDid you read the highly upvoted thread above saying depression is just in the mind, people who beat it gain "super-powers", and ranting about stoicism and meditation? There is a hell of a lot of deeply condescending woo here.
- TheLilHipster 10y ago> There is a hell of a lot of deeply condescending woo here. Your comment right here is the only "condescending woo" I've read in this thread.
- pasquinelli 10y agohow could someone speak about a trend without using generalizations?
- M_Grey 10y agoI was just about to post the final portion of the conclusion: In summary, compared to nondepressed indi- viduals, depressives are “nay-sayers”. Depressives may be sadder but they are not wiser; rather, so- called “depressive realism” results from the bias of depressives to say “no”. Clearly a lot of people just didn't read it at all... and didn't even skim the major portions.
- tehchromic 10y agoSo it's hopeless afterall
- RCortex 10y agoThe treatment/theraputic perspective is that depression is a treatable disease of the brain, one that can be modified by changes in behavior/thinking and/or by medication. (Note: the paper paints a mixed picture but concludes with the generally-accepted scientific model that depressive realism is rarely accurate) ...It's strange how I've been seeing more and more about how Depression is somehow "Rational" lately. That kind of thinking reinforces depression, and is part of the core of the illness. Also this meta-study doesn't assess whether depressed individuals also overestimate helplessness. (One of the studies in the paper only tests if they underestimate control in an experiment, which might sound like the same thing at first blush but it isn't) Broken clock is right twice, poorly-designed studies, and all that...
- InvisibleCities 10y agoI would imagine that it is about as useful to talk about "Depression" as it is to talk about "Cancer". There are so many forms, expressions, and causes of depression, requiring wildly different approaches to treatment, that I think we do a great disservice by lumping them all under the same umbrella term.
- RCortex 10y ago> There are so many forms, expressions, and causes of depression, requiring wildly different approaches to treatment, that I think we do a great disservice by lumping them all under the same umbrella term. While individuals with mental illnesses often have unique/situational characteristics, there are common causes and symptoms of such illnesses, hence our ability to categorize illnesses by name. Because the causes and symptoms are similar, medical professionals and therapists can prescribe appropriate cognitive, pharmaceutical, and other treatment plans. Telling yourself your depression is unique just feeds into the idea that it's unsolvable and that depression is rational...
- thevardanian 10y agoOne thing I don't understand is how a brain-state can ever be considered abnormal. It can be considered disadvantageous, or advantageous in some aspects only, but in no way be "normal". What are the normal facial features?
- Animats 10y agoIt might be said that, when the outcome density is increased, the typical participant displays irrational optimism. The slot machine industry figured that out about two decades ago. Slots today have a lot more small payoffs than they used to. Lotteries have also increased the number of small payoffs. The expectation ratio is no better, but dividing it up differently keeps some people playing.
- goldenkek 10y agoDeprived of happiness is terribly conspicuous. For optimists, this fact plays no part in their existential computations. For pessimists, however, it is axiomatic. Whether a pessimist urges us to live “heroically” with a knife in our gut or denounces life as not worth living is immaterial. What matters is that he makes no bones about hurt being the Great Problem it is incumbent on philosophy to observe. But this problem can be solved only by establishing an imbalance between hurt and happiness that would enable us in principle to say which is more desirable—existence or nonexistence. While no airtight case has ever been made regarding the undesirability of human life, pessimists still run themselves ragged trying to make one. Optimists have no comparable mission. When they do argue for the desirability of human life it is only in reaction to pessimists arguing the opposite, even though no airtight case has ever been made regarding that desirability. Optimism has always been an undeclared policy of human culture—one that grew out of our animal instincts to survive and reproduce—rather than an articulated body of thought. It is the default condition of our blood and cannot be effectively questioned by our minds or put in grave doubt by our pains. This would explain why at any given time there are more cannibals than philosophical pessimists. https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2696709-the-conspiracy-against-the-human-race https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2696709-the-conspiracy...
- habitue 10y agoThe title of this paper is the best part