4 ms·

The conclusions here (avoiding long-lived per-identity keys and having the option to easily rotate and re-validate per-device keys) are very much what we've aim

The conclusions here (avoiding long-lived per-identity keys and having the option to easily rotate and re-validate per-device keys) are very much what we've aimed for in the end-to-end crypto for Matrix.org (https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrixs-olm-end-to-end-encryption-security-assessment-released-and-implemented-cross-platform-on-riot-at-last/ https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrixs-olm-end-to-end-en...). Rather than using a silo like Signal or WhatsApp, it is possible to get the flexibility of an open federated network built on an open standard, whilst still having the lighter weight approach of trust common to E2E messaging apps like WhatsApp. Or at least that's the hope :)

buzzybee 10y ago
When I mention Matrix, a lot of people seem to pigeonhole it as a chat system alone because Riot is such a dominating part of the application ecosystem. It would be really great to have more code and demonstrations available; adding Matrix was suggested for Mastodon[0] to potentially gain chat and private messaging features that aren't part of GNUSocial, but as of right now it's considered out of scope. [0] https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/ https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/
- Arathorn 10y ago
  Hum, just found the bug at https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/issues/311 https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/issues/311 - shame that folks there haven't grokked what Matrix is. Yes, pigeonholing it as a chat system is kinda missing the point, but it's an easy way to kick the tyres and prove its potential. Once threading lands in Matrix we'll be adding in gateways for SMTP, IMAP, NNTP, Discourse, and possibly Gnusocial etc - either written by us or from the community. Then hopefully the bigger picture will be more obvious(!)
- NoGravitas 10y ago
  I would love to see a full-federated email-like (as opposed to chat-like) system built on top of Matrix.
nickik 10y ago
Matrix really is the hope in this respect. I would absolutely love Matrix in combination with Keybase. This would essentially connect the summation of my online identity with my chat system. It really does seem like a match made in heaven, but I understand how practically difficult this is.
- Arathorn 10y ago
  the good news is that keybase now deals in the same EC25519 keys that we do :) the bad news is that they've never responded to any of our requests to hook up. Plus there's a bit of a philosophical mismatch given keybase are effectively centralised, even if they publish the root of their ID tree to a blockchain. We need to solve decentralised identity somehow for Matrix anyway, so hopefully we'll find a solution soon :)
  - nickik 10y ago
    Interesting. I don't propose that Keybase is adopted on the hole, but somewho we need to able to connect authentication system (centralised or not) with the protocols we use for chat. Maybe these can be made pluggable. Seems like a hard problem, Im thankful that nobody expects me to come up with a solution. Whats the best information on the current Matrix identity stuff? I did not find really good information how this currently works. Thanks for your work.
    - Arathorn 10y ago
      At the moment Matrix identity is a very simple centralised system: http://matrix.org/docs/spec/identity_service/unstable.html http://matrix.org/docs/spec/identity_service/unstable.html. The official bug for replacing this with something decentralised is https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/712 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/712.
darklajid 10y ago
I'm currently testing out Riot with the wife, as a potential Telegram replacement. So far matrix/riot are my favorite in terms of vision, but I have to say that the ux is still rather unfamiliar for my limited set if non technical users. Still, thank you for matrix, awesome job so far.
- Arathorn 10y ago
  yup, turns out good UX is a nightmare; who knew? :D it's being worked on atm :)
hobarrera 10y ago
IMHO, the biggest issue with matrix, is that there's no free hosted solution for using my own domain/email. Sure, I can rent a server and set up my own, but that's a huge commitment to "try out" a protocol which non of my acquaintances uses yet.
- Arathorn 10y ago
  hm, can you point me at an email provider who provides free SMTP/IMAP/webmail or XMPP hosting for custom domains? I may be missing something, but I can't think of one... The model is that you can try it out on the matrix.org server via riot.im or something, and then run your own if you like what you see :)
  - oldsj 10y ago
    Zoho actually provides custom domain email for free.
  - hobarrera 10y ago
    What does SMTP/IMAP have to do with this? We're talking about early adopters of an unused technology. In my 2016, getting into email is far form being an early adopter.

buzzybee 10y ago

When I mention Matrix, a lot of people seem to pigeonhole it as a chat system alone because Riot is such a dominating part of the application ecosystem. It would be really great to have more code and demonstrations available; adding Matrix was suggested for Mastodon[0] to potentially gain chat and private messaging features that aren't part of GNUSocial, but as of right now it's considered out of scope. [0] https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/ https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/

Arathorn 10y ago
Hum, just found the bug at https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/issues/311 https://github.com/Gargron/mastodon/issues/311 - shame that folks there haven't grokked what Matrix is. Yes, pigeonholing it as a chat system is kinda missing the point, but it's an easy way to kick the tyres and prove its potential. Once threading lands in Matrix we'll be adding in gateways for SMTP, IMAP, NNTP, Discourse, and possibly Gnusocial etc - either written by us or from the community. Then hopefully the bigger picture will be more obvious(!)
NoGravitas 10y ago
I would love to see a full-federated email-like (as opposed to chat-like) system built on top of Matrix.

nickik 10y ago

Matrix really is the hope in this respect. I would absolutely love Matrix in combination with Keybase. This would essentially connect the summation of my online identity with my chat system. It really does seem like a match made in heaven, but I understand how practically difficult this is.

Arathorn 10y ago
the good news is that keybase now deals in the same EC25519 keys that we do :) the bad news is that they've never responded to any of our requests to hook up. Plus there's a bit of a philosophical mismatch given keybase are effectively centralised, even if they publish the root of their ID tree to a blockchain. We need to solve decentralised identity somehow for Matrix anyway, so hopefully we'll find a solution soon :)
- nickik 10y ago
  Interesting. I don't propose that Keybase is adopted on the hole, but somewho we need to able to connect authentication system (centralised or not) with the protocols we use for chat. Maybe these can be made pluggable. Seems like a hard problem, Im thankful that nobody expects me to come up with a solution. Whats the best information on the current Matrix identity stuff? I did not find really good information how this currently works. Thanks for your work.
  - Arathorn 10y ago
    At the moment Matrix identity is a very simple centralised system: http://matrix.org/docs/spec/identity_service/unstable.html http://matrix.org/docs/spec/identity_service/unstable.html. The official bug for replacing this with something decentralised is https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/712 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/712.

darklajid 10y ago

I'm currently testing out Riot with the wife, as a potential Telegram replacement. So far matrix/riot are my favorite in terms of vision, but I have to say that the ux is still rather unfamiliar for my limited set if non technical users. Still, thank you for matrix, awesome job so far.

Arathorn 10y ago
yup, turns out good UX is a nightmare; who knew? :D it's being worked on atm :)

hobarrera 10y ago

IMHO, the biggest issue with matrix, is that there's no free hosted solution for using my own domain/email. Sure, I can rent a server and set up my own, but that's a huge commitment to "try out" a protocol which non of my acquaintances uses yet.

Arathorn 10y ago
hm, can you point me at an email provider who provides free SMTP/IMAP/webmail or XMPP hosting for custom domains? I may be missing something, but I can't think of one... The model is that you can try it out on the matrix.org server via riot.im or something, and then run your own if you like what you see :)
- oldsj 10y ago
  Zoho actually provides custom domain email for free.
- hobarrera 10y ago
  What does SMTP/IMAP have to do with this? We're talking about early adopters of an unused technology. In my 2016, getting into email is far form being an early adopter.