6 ms·

You really can't compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure. The take home pay certainly is mu

by renaudg 10y ago

You really can't compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure. The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up. I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.

user5994461 10y ago
We shouldn't compare... Right. Let's just say that it's hard to make much more past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. And the accommodation costs the same number as in London (at 1 EUR = 1 GBP).
- fsloth 10y ago
  "Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. " If we are speaking of software engineering salaries that's really low. In Helsinki capable professionals can get 'easily' 3000€ after taxes per month (not in all companies though). If one has proven track record, is undoubtedly in 'smart and gets things done' category, etc.
- gbersac 10y ago
  I am a junior developer and make 2400€ after tax a month. Being paid less than 2100€ a month after tax just after school is considered under payment.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    2400€ per month = 48k€ gross per year (on 13 months). Are you really getting that as a junior? I highly doubt so. I bet that you're not accounting for what would be translated literally as "the income tax". Wait till you get the 3k€ tax bill at the end of the year ;)
    - stymaar 10y ago
      42k gross a year (not uncommon for a junior from a good engineering school) => 2695 net a month before income tax. (12 month) Income tax for 32340€ (assuming you're single) => 3093€ a year net salary after tax: 2437€ CQFD.
      - user5994461 10y ago
        42k doable. Not easy, but doable. (I suppose fairly reasonable if you're from a Parisian school, you know the area and live there already, plus you can handle the Google interviews). My calculator gives 2336 EUR per month on 12 months. (2156 EUR on 13 months). The thing is, you're on 12 months so it's better than the estimation I gave initially. You're lucky in a sense, many places are forcing 13 months contract nowadays, which instantly steals 1/12 of your income. Anyway, I consider that it fits the definition of "not much more than 2k". That will plateau [counter-]exponentially fast, don't expect to get 3k anytime soon :D
        walshemj 10y ago
        I thought the 13 month was a bonus at the end of the year?
        user5994461 10y ago
        kinda but not really. Let's say you have a contract written "26k gross over 13 months". It means, you're paid 2k per month (26/13). In December, you'll get 4k at once. [If you're still there, and worked the whole year, and didn't give your notice, and weren't sick more than X days... There can be some pretty nasty conditions to try to not pay you]. --- The dishonest way to put it (what French people think and what company say): say that the salary is 26k. Except it's really not that, you can NOT rely on that money. The programmatic way to put it: You're paid 24k gross, 2k per month. You MAY get 1 month of [mostly] guaranteed bonus at the end of the year. The left-France-For-Abroad way to put it: French companies not only pay bad but they try to fuck with your income and ostensibly lie to your face. Americans/London tech did not do that, they give the real number for your salary, and they add ON TOP generous bonus/RSU/profitshare plus free catered food and insurance.
- stymaar 10y ago
  > Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. Really ? Shortly after I graduated, I've been hired at 2700€ (net salary minus income tax). If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter)
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Not possible. That's 55k€ gross over 13 months. That's a hard number to get for someone with 5-10 years experience. Sorry to say but there is no way you got that after graduation ^^ Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance. That's really really tough. Would you mind sharing the gross salary number actually written on the contract and the name of the company and the careers page :D ? > If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter). I had some professional experiences at the time and there was no way I'd get anywhere near that. I've left the country since because I'd rather leave the street than live in the street. Let's talk business. Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets. What kind of career would you or your friends offer back in France for that kind of profile?
    - stymaar 10y ago
      > Not possible. That's 55k€ gross over 13 months. As I already replied to your other comment, your calculation is flawed (partially because of your 13 month stuff but not only) > Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance. I'm from that kind of school, and in finance you don't really need network or "copinage" to get 55k a year. With it, a few manage to reach above 100k. > Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets. I'm not really in the financial business, but I'm not sure you could find work in «trading infrastructure» here in Paris. Maybe BNP has some stuff, but I know many banks have settled in London for that part of their business. That being said, you could easily find a job above 60k in Paris with this background. Streamroot[1] had a position for this exact profile several month ago. Of course it's probably not much compared to what you earn in the trading business, but saying that 2500€ a month is impossible in Paris is just wrong nowadays. I don't know how the market was several years ago, but I think you really underestimate the shortage of developers in Paris at the moment. [1] https://www.streamroot.io/careers https://www.streamroot.io/careers
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
lacampbell 10y ago
He is earning 50k more in the US. Are you insinuating that the social welfare state of France provides close to 50k worth of services!? Because that would have to be true for the position in the US to be at all comparable. This ignores the much lower price of consumables in the US as well.
- renaudg 10y ago
  Depends on your individual situation, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds, see this story: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-healthcare-20161118-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-heal...
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    Unicorn story. How about the more common case of "healthy young person with no assets or savings bears a disproportionate burden by being taxed an outlandish amount for an inefficient health care system mainly catering to the elderly"? I suppose that isn't suitable for an LA Times piece.
    - renaudg 10y ago
      Whether the case is "more common" is debatable (and besides the point, unless you'd like to challenge the whole premise of sharing risk through insurance). As it turns out, I am that healthy young person from the country with socialized healthcare who temporarily went to work in the neighboring country with higher take-home pay, so I think I can tell you a thing or two about the trade-off. As much as I usually love to hate on the French system, it's hard to describe to someone who never experienced it the feeling of security that comes with the knowledge that every treatment decision for you is made by your doctor on the basis of best medical outcome, period. Never before I moved to the UK and discovered private insurance through work had I even heard about "preexisting conditions", "lifetime limits", and the whole idea of having to talk to some guy in a call center about your ailments to get pre-approval, which you might or might not get based on whether this will affect their finance guy's Q4 targets. Oh and "inefficient health care system"... absolutely, if by that you meant the US system : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-healt...

by renaudg 10y ago

user5994461 10y ago

We shouldn't compare... Right. Let's just say that it's hard to make much more past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. And the accommodation costs the same number as in London (at 1 EUR = 1 GBP).

fsloth 10y ago
"Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. " If we are speaking of software engineering salaries that's really low. In Helsinki capable professionals can get 'easily' 3000€ after taxes per month (not in all companies though). If one has proven track record, is undoubtedly in 'smart and gets things done' category, etc.
gbersac 10y ago
I am a junior developer and make 2400€ after tax a month. Being paid less than 2100€ a month after tax just after school is considered under payment.
- user5994461 10y ago
  2400€ per month = 48k€ gross per year (on 13 months). Are you really getting that as a junior? I highly doubt so. I bet that you're not accounting for what would be translated literally as "the income tax". Wait till you get the 3k€ tax bill at the end of the year ;)
  - stymaar 10y ago
    42k gross a year (not uncommon for a junior from a good engineering school) => 2695 net a month before income tax. (12 month) Income tax for 32340€ (assuming you're single) => 3093€ a year net salary after tax: 2437€ CQFD.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      42k doable. Not easy, but doable. (I suppose fairly reasonable if you're from a Parisian school, you know the area and live there already, plus you can handle the Google interviews). My calculator gives 2336 EUR per month on 12 months. (2156 EUR on 13 months). The thing is, you're on 12 months so it's better than the estimation I gave initially. You're lucky in a sense, many places are forcing 13 months contract nowadays, which instantly steals 1/12 of your income. Anyway, I consider that it fits the definition of "not much more than 2k". That will plateau [counter-]exponentially fast, don't expect to get 3k anytime soon :D
      - walshemj 10y ago
        I thought the 13 month was a bonus at the end of the year?
        user5994461 10y ago
        kinda but not really. Let's say you have a contract written "26k gross over 13 months". It means, you're paid 2k per month (26/13). In December, you'll get 4k at once. [If you're still there, and worked the whole year, and didn't give your notice, and weren't sick more than X days... There can be some pretty nasty conditions to try to not pay you]. --- The dishonest way to put it (what French people think and what company say): say that the salary is 26k. Except it's really not that, you can NOT rely on that money. The programmatic way to put it: You're paid 24k gross, 2k per month. You MAY get 1 month of [mostly] guaranteed bonus at the end of the year. The left-France-For-Abroad way to put it: French companies not only pay bad but they try to fuck with your income and ostensibly lie to your face. Americans/London tech did not do that, they give the real number for your salary, and they add ON TOP generous bonus/RSU/profitshare plus free catered food and insurance.
stymaar 10y ago
> Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. Really ? Shortly after I graduated, I've been hired at 2700€ (net salary minus income tax). If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter)
- user5994461 10y ago
  Not possible. That's 55k€ gross over 13 months. That's a hard number to get for someone with 5-10 years experience. Sorry to say but there is no way you got that after graduation ^^ Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance. That's really really tough. Would you mind sharing the gross salary number actually written on the contract and the name of the company and the careers page :D ? > If you have professional experience and are paid below 2500€, you really need a new job ! (all my friends are hiring, feel free to contact me on twitter). I had some professional experiences at the time and there was no way I'd get anywhere near that. I've left the country since because I'd rather leave the street than live in the street. Let's talk business. Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets. What kind of career would you or your friends offer back in France for that kind of profile?
  - stymaar 10y ago
    > Not possible. That's 55k€ gross over 13 months. As I already replied to your other comment, your calculation is flawed (partially because of your 13 month stuff but not only) > Even if you are part of the "privileged schools" with a special network of friends and "copinage", in finance. I'm from that kind of school, and in finance you don't really need network or "copinage" to get 55k a year. With it, a few manage to reach above 100k. > Let's imagine for a minute a guy who is handling the core trading infrastructure, for a financial institution, responsible for over 1 bazillion dollar in assets. I'm not really in the financial business, but I'm not sure you could find work in «trading infrastructure» here in Paris. Maybe BNP has some stuff, but I know many banks have settled in London for that part of their business. That being said, you could easily find a job above 60k in Paris with this background. Streamroot[1] had a position for this exact profile several month ago. Of course it's probably not much compared to what you earn in the trading business, but saying that 2500€ a month is impossible in Paris is just wrong nowadays. I don't know how the market was several years ago, but I think you really underestimate the shortage of developers in Paris at the moment. [1] https://www.streamroot.io/careers https://www.streamroot.io/careers
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

lacampbell 10y ago

He is earning 50k more in the US. Are you insinuating that the social welfare state of France provides close to 50k worth of services!? Because that would have to be true for the position in the US to be at all comparable. This ignores the much lower price of consumables in the US as well.

renaudg 10y ago
Depends on your individual situation, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds, see this story: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-healthcare-20161118-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-heal...
- lacampbell 10y ago
  Unicorn story. How about the more common case of "healthy young person with no assets or savings bears a disproportionate burden by being taxed an outlandish amount for an inefficient health care system mainly catering to the elderly"? I suppose that isn't suitable for an LA Times piece.
  - renaudg 10y ago
    Whether the case is "more common" is debatable (and besides the point, unless you'd like to challenge the whole premise of sharing risk through insurance). As it turns out, I am that healthy young person from the country with socialized healthcare who temporarily went to work in the neighboring country with higher take-home pay, so I think I can tell you a thing or two about the trade-off. As much as I usually love to hate on the French system, it's hard to describe to someone who never experienced it the feeling of security that comes with the knowledge that every treatment decision for you is made by your doctor on the basis of best medical outcome, period. Never before I moved to the UK and discovered private insurance through work had I even heard about "preexisting conditions", "lifetime limits", and the whole idea of having to talk to some guy in a call center about your ailments to get pre-approval, which you might or might not get based on whether this will affect their finance guy's Q4 targets. Oh and "inefficient health care system"... absolutely, if by that you meant the US system : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-healt...