5 ms·

I met a senior developer who worked for a large consulting firm in france. He got a greencard and moved to the USA. He was making something close to 50K USA in

I met a senior developer who worked for a large consulting firm in france. He got a greencard and moved to the USA. He was making something close to 50K USA in France with 9 years of C# development experience. It took a while to convince him that he could land a position at 100K+ here. Is it lack of jobs that causes this disparity?

Heraclite 10y ago
I's also a cultural one, at least regarding the developers. The status of the developer is still considered lower as middle management. It's slowly changing though, as developers are becoming more and more respected. But we're far from SF where developers have a higher symbolic status and where the good ones get huge salaries. I never understood why some companies in France are reluctant to pay well their developers, especially startups with funding.
- younes0 10y ago
  Because SF startups ROI are much higher ?
renaudg 10y ago
You really can't compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure. The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up. I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.
- user5994461 10y ago
  We shouldn't compare... Right. Let's just say that it's hard to make much more past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. And the accommodation costs the same number as in London (at 1 EUR = 1 GBP).
  - fsloth 10y ago
    "Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. " If we are speaking of software engineering salaries that's really low. In Helsinki capable professionals can get 'easily' 3000€ after taxes per month (not in all companies though). If one has proven track record, is undoubtedly in 'smart and gets things done' category, etc.
  - gbersac 10y ago
    I am a junior developer and make 2400€ after tax a month. Being paid less than 2100€ a month after tax just after school is considered under payment.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      2400€ per month = 48k€ gross per year (on 13 months). Are you really getting that as a junior? I highly doubt so. I bet that you're not accounting for what would be translated literally as "the income tax". Wait till you get the 3k€ tax bill at the end of the year ;)
      - stymaar 10y ago
        42k gross a year (not uncommon for a junior from a good engineering school) => 2695 net a month before income tax. (12 month) Income tax for 32340€ (assuming you're single) => 3093€ a year net salary after tax: 2437€ CQFD.
        user5994461 10y ago
        42k doable. Not easy, but doable. (I suppose fairly reasonable if you're from a Parisian school, you know the area and live there already, plus you can handle the Google interviews). My calculator gives 2336 EUR per month on 12 months. (2156 EUR on 13 months). The thing is, you're on 12 months so it's better than the estimation I gave initially. You're lucky in a sense, many places are forcing 13 months contract nowadays, which instantly steals 1/12 of your income. Anyway, I consider that it fits the definition of "not much more than 2k". That will plateau [counter-]exponentially fast, don't expect to get 3k anytime soon :D
- lacampbell 10y ago
  He is earning 50k more in the US. Are you insinuating that the social welfare state of France provides close to 50k worth of services!? Because that would have to be true for the position in the US to be at all comparable. This ignores the much lower price of consumables in the US as well.
  - renaudg 10y ago
    Depends on your individual situation, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds, see this story: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-healthcare-20161118-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-heal...
    - lacampbell 10y ago
      Unicorn story. How about the more common case of "healthy young person with no assets or savings bears a disproportionate burden by being taxed an outlandish amount for an inefficient health care system mainly catering to the elderly"? I suppose that isn't suitable for an LA Times piece.
      - renaudg 10y ago
        Whether the case is "more common" is debatable (and besides the point, unless you'd like to challenge the whole premise of sharing risk through insurance). As it turns out, I am that healthy young person from the country with socialized healthcare who temporarily went to work in the neighboring country with higher take-home pay, so I think I can tell you a thing or two about the trade-off. As much as I usually love to hate on the French system, it's hard to describe to someone who never experienced it the feeling of security that comes with the knowledge that every treatment decision for you is made by your doctor on the basis of best medical outcome, period. Never before I moved to the UK and discovered private insurance through work had I even heard about "preexisting conditions", "lifetime limits", and the whole idea of having to talk to some guy in a call center about your ailments to get pre-approval, which you might or might not get based on whether this will affect their finance guy's Q4 targets. Oh and "inefficient health care system"... absolutely, if by that you meant the US system : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-healt...

Heraclite 10y ago

I's also a cultural one, at least regarding the developers. The status of the developer is still considered lower as middle management. It's slowly changing though, as developers are becoming more and more respected. But we're far from SF where developers have a higher symbolic status and where the good ones get huge salaries. I never understood why some companies in France are reluctant to pay well their developers, especially startups with funding.

younes0 10y ago
Because SF startups ROI are much higher ?

renaudg 10y ago

You really can't compare pre-tax salaries between countries with such a completely different taxation and benefits structure. The take home pay certainly is much, much lower in France than in the US, but it comes with access to top-notch free healthcare, free university, pension contributions, 5-7 weeks paid leave and generous unemployment insurance amongst other things. It all adds up. I'm French, working in London and I've been happy with the trade off of more pay for a thinner social safety net, but I know it would be foolish to compare wages directly. I suspect the difference is much less spectacular with everything taken into account.

user5994461 10y ago
We shouldn't compare... Right. Let's just say that it's hard to make much more past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. And the accommodation costs the same number as in London (at 1 EUR = 1 GBP).
- fsloth 10y ago
  "Let's just say that it's hard to make anything past 2000 EUR per month after taxes in Paris. " If we are speaking of software engineering salaries that's really low. In Helsinki capable professionals can get 'easily' 3000€ after taxes per month (not in all companies though). If one has proven track record, is undoubtedly in 'smart and gets things done' category, etc.
- gbersac 10y ago
  I am a junior developer and make 2400€ after tax a month. Being paid less than 2100€ a month after tax just after school is considered under payment.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    2400€ per month = 48k€ gross per year (on 13 months). Are you really getting that as a junior? I highly doubt so. I bet that you're not accounting for what would be translated literally as "the income tax". Wait till you get the 3k€ tax bill at the end of the year ;)
    - stymaar 10y ago
      42k gross a year (not uncommon for a junior from a good engineering school) => 2695 net a month before income tax. (12 month) Income tax for 32340€ (assuming you're single) => 3093€ a year net salary after tax: 2437€ CQFD.
      - user5994461 10y ago
        42k doable. Not easy, but doable. (I suppose fairly reasonable if you're from a Parisian school, you know the area and live there already, plus you can handle the Google interviews). My calculator gives 2336 EUR per month on 12 months. (2156 EUR on 13 months). The thing is, you're on 12 months so it's better than the estimation I gave initially. You're lucky in a sense, many places are forcing 13 months contract nowadays, which instantly steals 1/12 of your income. Anyway, I consider that it fits the definition of "not much more than 2k". That will plateau [counter-]exponentially fast, don't expect to get 3k anytime soon :D
lacampbell 10y ago
He is earning 50k more in the US. Are you insinuating that the social welfare state of France provides close to 50k worth of services!? Because that would have to be true for the position in the US to be at all comparable. This ignores the much lower price of consumables in the US as well.
- renaudg 10y ago
  Depends on your individual situation, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds, see this story: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-healthcare-20161118-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-lamar-french-heal...
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    Unicorn story. How about the more common case of "healthy young person with no assets or savings bears a disproportionate burden by being taxed an outlandish amount for an inefficient health care system mainly catering to the elderly"? I suppose that isn't suitable for an LA Times piece.
    - renaudg 10y ago
      Whether the case is "more common" is debatable (and besides the point, unless you'd like to challenge the whole premise of sharing risk through insurance). As it turns out, I am that healthy young person from the country with socialized healthcare who temporarily went to work in the neighboring country with higher take-home pay, so I think I can tell you a thing or two about the trade-off. As much as I usually love to hate on the French system, it's hard to describe to someone who never experienced it the feeling of security that comes with the knowledge that every treatment decision for you is made by your doctor on the basis of best medical outcome, period. Never before I moved to the UK and discovered private insurance through work had I even heard about "preexisting conditions", "lifetime limits", and the whole idea of having to talk to some guy in a call center about your ailments to get pre-approval, which you might or might not get based on whether this will affect their finance guy's Q4 targets. Oh and "inefficient health care system"... absolutely, if by that you meant the US system : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-as-one-of-the-least-efficient https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/u-s-healt...