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Don't you think your post rings of false equivalency? How do you discuss in "good faith" ideas like white nationalism?

bmelton 10y ago
How do you discuss in "good faith" ideas like white nationalism? You discuss it the same way you discuss any other idea in good faith: by evaluating the content on its message, not on the presuppositions you might have for its messenger; by evaluating each topic in isolation on its own, and trying to determine whether or not any individual point has merit or not, how much merit it may have, and where it does not have merit, explaining why you consider it meritless; by being open-minded enough to not dismiss individual points because you disagree with the central thesis; by putting forth your best arguments, and letting the stronger argument win the day, unblemished by vitriol; by being civil and courteous to your fellow man because as humans, they're deserving of at least a civil, open minded discussion.
- CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
  It is also worth noting that there is a difference between discussing white nationalism itself and discussing the impact of it and if it needs to be curtailed. For example, let's look at Google's Trusted Contacts. For obvious reasons, a lot of HN are very opposed to it. One topic that was brought up was the Google Buzz disaster and how google pre-built the community based on who we had emailed and talked to. Which was very dangerous for people who had an abusive ex. If that were to launch today (and something similar will...), white nationalism becomes a huge problem. All of those bloggers and twitter folk who decide to NOT shove their head in the sand and actually engage and speak up are suddenly going to have their other contacts exposed. The people who have friends who speak against Breitbart are now directly exposed. And that is a pretty big tech AND social issue. And to ignore the problem with a large movement of people who tend to be more armed than their political spectrum counterparts and who have a long history of getting their way through abuse is horrifically negligent. And considering that white nationalist parties/candidates are gaining political office in many western nations, it becomes even more of an issue. Can we discuss political legislature that seems to specifically target tech geared toward helping inner city youths (who tend to be black)? What about a marked tendency for facial recognition and profiling software that applies a color wheel to determine threats to gain funding? All of that is political, all of that is very heavily influenced by understanding that it is white nationalist parties pushing it, and all of that MUST be discussed.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    Here we go. > friends who speak against Breitbart > people who tend to be more armed > a long history of getting their way through abuse > white nationalist parties/candidates Are you talking about white nationalists, or actually about conservatives/Trump/Breitbart, tarring them as violent and abusive along the way?
    - chillwaves 10y ago
      There is considerable overlap between the groups. I find your inability to acknowledge that fact toxic and a hurdle to honest dialogue.
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        Prove it. You label me "toxic" and dishonest, but you want me to just accept your assumptions? My "honest" dialogue is based on verifiable facts, not speculative slander.
      - ryanlol 10y ago
        This claim is so utterly ridiculous at it's face. How many white nationalists are there? How many conservatives are there?
        chillwaves 10y ago
        So you are saying because A is a subset of B, then I cannot claim overlap? Because you refuse to acknowledge the reality of racial identity politics? I guess when the White Nationalists meet in DC to do their Sig Heil in support of Trump (this literally happened) or vandalize churches in DC (this literally happened) we can all pretend that the dialogue attacking minorities is unrelated to white nationalism? That sites like Breitbart who push these racially charged stories can wash their hands while they collect ad revenue from stirring up racial violence? I disagree.
        Chris2048 10y ago
Chris2048 10y ago
You can discuss anything in good faith, but how many white nationalism discussions are there on HN?

How do you discuss in "good faith" ideas like white nationalism? You discuss it the same way you discuss any other idea in good faith: by evaluating the content on its message, not on the presuppositions you might have for its messenger; by evaluating each topic in isolation on its own, and trying to determine whether or not any individual point has merit or not, how much merit it may have, and where it does not have merit, explaining why you consider it meritless; by being open-minded enough to not dismiss individual points because you disagree with the central thesis; by putting forth your best arguments, and letting the stronger argument win the day, unblemished by vitriol; by being civil and courteous to your fellow man because as humans, they're deserving of at least a civil, open minded discussion.

CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
It is also worth noting that there is a difference between discussing white nationalism itself and discussing the impact of it and if it needs to be curtailed. For example, let's look at Google's Trusted Contacts. For obvious reasons, a lot of HN are very opposed to it. One topic that was brought up was the Google Buzz disaster and how google pre-built the community based on who we had emailed and talked to. Which was very dangerous for people who had an abusive ex. If that were to launch today (and something similar will...), white nationalism becomes a huge problem. All of those bloggers and twitter folk who decide to NOT shove their head in the sand and actually engage and speak up are suddenly going to have their other contacts exposed. The people who have friends who speak against Breitbart are now directly exposed. And that is a pretty big tech AND social issue. And to ignore the problem with a large movement of people who tend to be more armed than their political spectrum counterparts and who have a long history of getting their way through abuse is horrifically negligent. And considering that white nationalist parties/candidates are gaining political office in many western nations, it becomes even more of an issue. Can we discuss political legislature that seems to specifically target tech geared toward helping inner city youths (who tend to be black)? What about a marked tendency for facial recognition and profiling software that applies a color wheel to determine threats to gain funding? All of that is political, all of that is very heavily influenced by understanding that it is white nationalist parties pushing it, and all of that MUST be discussed.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  Here we go. > friends who speak against Breitbart > people who tend to be more armed > a long history of getting their way through abuse > white nationalist parties/candidates Are you talking about white nationalists, or actually about conservatives/Trump/Breitbart, tarring them as violent and abusive along the way?
  - chillwaves 10y ago
    There is considerable overlap between the groups. I find your inability to acknowledge that fact toxic and a hurdle to honest dialogue.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      Prove it. You label me "toxic" and dishonest, but you want me to just accept your assumptions? My "honest" dialogue is based on verifiable facts, not speculative slander.
    - ryanlol 10y ago
      This claim is so utterly ridiculous at it's face. How many white nationalists are there? How many conservatives are there?
      - chillwaves 10y ago
        So you are saying because A is a subset of B, then I cannot claim overlap? Because you refuse to acknowledge the reality of racial identity politics? I guess when the White Nationalists meet in DC to do their Sig Heil in support of Trump (this literally happened) or vandalize churches in DC (this literally happened) we can all pretend that the dialogue attacking minorities is unrelated to white nationalism? That sites like Breitbart who push these racially charged stories can wash their hands while they collect ad revenue from stirring up racial violence? I disagree.
        Chris2048 10y ago

Chris2048 10y ago

You can discuss anything in good faith, but how many white nationalism discussions are there on HN?