6 ms·

The idea that we can carve out a space that exists outside of politics and ideology is delusional. Ideology is present everywhere. It's built in to the ways we

The idea that we can carve out a space that exists outside of politics and ideology is delusional. Ideology is present everywhere. It's built in to the ways we relate to each other, to our employers, to the public and private institutions and technologies we interact with all the time, and especially the way we work and conceive of work. Ideology is often tacit, baked into our assumptions even in "non-political" areas. Squelching political discussion won't cause us all to transcend ideology, it'll just make it impossible to discuss or critique a dominant ideology whenever one shows up in someone's unstated assumptions. This is a bad idea and a little dystopian (the world is upside down, but think happy thoughts, folks! Here's a TED talk!) Not to mention I didn't really see a huge problem on the site, so in a time when politics and ideology are on everyone's minds for good reason, it seems you've chosen to solve a non-problem with censorship.

dang 10y ago
Of course it's delusional. The concepts can't be defined to begin with, nor can they be separated in any consistent way. And still we have to moderate this site. > the world is upside down, but think happy thoughts, folks! Here's a TED talk! It's sort of a peeve of mine that people project this onto us because I can't say how I really feel about it without breaking our own rules.
- irickt 10y ago
  > people project this onto us You might be suggesting an unconscious and in a sense innocent psychological bias. I also allow that a comment like the GP is in a style intended to twist and inflame. In this context the motivation could be to keep HN on the trajecory of more noise.
- Analemma_ 10y ago
  You've already pissed everyone off with this bad decision, it's not like you can make it much worse. Might as well get it out there and at least try to defend yourself.
  - dang 10y ago
    Things can always get worse.
    - brudgers 10y ago
      Always looking on the bright side.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      FWIW I think the moratorium is the right call, and I would analogize it to a temporary ceasefire. Sometimes the right thing to do in a chaotic situation is to shout "Stop!" and gain better objectivity during the reprieve.
- zepto 10y ago
  > people project this into us because I can't say how I really feel about it without breaking our own rules. Perhaps people aren't projecting so much as seeing your rules as a reflection of your beliefs, which you now say they are not.
- jdp23 10y ago
  Perhaps grounding your moderation policies around concepts you know are undefined and inseparable isn't the best basis for moderating the site. As for how people see your actions: labeling it as "projecting" might make you feel better, but probably gets in the way of you understanding what they're saying. In today's environment, you can't simultaneously make the site an welcoming place for people who are anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-feminist, anti-trans (etc.) - and for people who are Muslim, immigrant, women, trans and nonbinary people (etc) or allies to any of these groups. What people are telling you is that they see YC - and you personally - as siding with the bigots.
  - dang 10y ago
    It's the best basis for moderating the site because the alternative is impossible. You're right, though, that I shouldn't use the word 'project' like that.
    - throwaway098345 10y ago
      It's not impossible to say "this is a technology site, here we discuss technology" which would make it much less arbitrary which things are politics and not. You might not want to do that, but it's certainly not impossible as an alternative. "Technology only week" is probably even an easier sell for an experiment.
      - dang 10y ago
        HN is not a technology site. It's a site for "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity": https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        gravypod 10y ago
        > HN is not a technology site. It's a site for "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" Does political discussion not gratify intellectual curiosity? I'd say that I'm definetly curious to see others political opinions. This is a ban on a discussion topic as arbitrary as banning discussion of IC vs Passives. Not letting people hear opposing view points is more detrimental then seeing a view point you disagree with.
jdietrich 10y ago
If you stood up in the middle of a geology lecture and tried to start an argument about Roe v. Wade, you'd rightfully be thrown out of the room. We're all affected by politics, but that doesn't mean that political discussion is necessary, useful or welcome in every context. This is Hacker News. It's not the front page of Reddit, it's a niche site with a clear remit. I'm absolutely fine with any general political discussion being permanently flagged as off topic. If people want to discuss something like internet censorship or science funding, I think this may be an appropriate venue. Discussions about the technology of politics like econometrics, polling error or voting machine design may also be relevant. Beyond that, the internet has no shortage of places to discuss politics; many of them have a vastly higher calibre of political discourse than HN.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  > many [other places on the internet] have a vastly higher calibre of political discourse than HN. Can you (or anyone) point us to these? Not being sarcastic, but also somewhat skeptical - I've never encountered another public forum of HN's overall quality. I think the metaphor about the geology lecture is misleading - HN isn't a lecture hall, it's an exhibition hall, and if the only criteria for something being an exhibit is a capacity to intellectually stimulate, then I don't see why political discussion should be precluded.
- jkimmel 10y ago
  > If you stood up in the middle of a geology lecture and tried to start an argument about Roe v. Wade This is a false premise. I've spent my week at a large scientific conference. We have continually had panels re: our role and responsibility as scientists in the current political environment. Talks on hard technical issues have often included comments alluding to these roles and responsibilities. Technologists are so deeply involved in the way that modern society perceives the world outside their immediate community that it's absurd to believe they can be apolitical. Technologists need to discuss their roles and responsibilities as well. So no -- you would not be thrown out of a room for bringing up politics in a Geology lecture. HN isn't a Geology lecture at all. It's more like a quad at an engineering school. We're here because we're curious, we like to build things, we want to help create a better world. We cannot do that while insulating ourselves from the reality of our world's most powerful organizations and their leaders.

dang 10y ago

Of course it's delusional. The concepts can't be defined to begin with, nor can they be separated in any consistent way. And still we have to moderate this site. > the world is upside down, but think happy thoughts, folks! Here's a TED talk! It's sort of a peeve of mine that people project this onto us because I can't say how I really feel about it without breaking our own rules.

irickt 10y ago
> people project this onto us You might be suggesting an unconscious and in a sense innocent psychological bias. I also allow that a comment like the GP is in a style intended to twist and inflame. In this context the motivation could be to keep HN on the trajecory of more noise.
Analemma_ 10y ago
You've already pissed everyone off with this bad decision, it's not like you can make it much worse. Might as well get it out there and at least try to defend yourself.
- dang 10y ago
  Things can always get worse.
  - brudgers 10y ago
    Always looking on the bright side.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    FWIW I think the moratorium is the right call, and I would analogize it to a temporary ceasefire. Sometimes the right thing to do in a chaotic situation is to shout "Stop!" and gain better objectivity during the reprieve.
zepto 10y ago
> people project this into us because I can't say how I really feel about it without breaking our own rules. Perhaps people aren't projecting so much as seeing your rules as a reflection of your beliefs, which you now say they are not.
jdp23 10y ago
Perhaps grounding your moderation policies around concepts you know are undefined and inseparable isn't the best basis for moderating the site. As for how people see your actions: labeling it as "projecting" might make you feel better, but probably gets in the way of you understanding what they're saying. In today's environment, you can't simultaneously make the site an welcoming place for people who are anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-feminist, anti-trans (etc.) - and for people who are Muslim, immigrant, women, trans and nonbinary people (etc) or allies to any of these groups. What people are telling you is that they see YC - and you personally - as siding with the bigots.
- dang 10y ago
  It's the best basis for moderating the site because the alternative is impossible. You're right, though, that I shouldn't use the word 'project' like that.
  - throwaway098345 10y ago
    It's not impossible to say "this is a technology site, here we discuss technology" which would make it much less arbitrary which things are politics and not. You might not want to do that, but it's certainly not impossible as an alternative. "Technology only week" is probably even an easier sell for an experiment.
    - dang 10y ago
      HN is not a technology site. It's a site for "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity": https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - gravypod 10y ago
        > HN is not a technology site. It's a site for "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" Does political discussion not gratify intellectual curiosity? I'd say that I'm definetly curious to see others political opinions. This is a ban on a discussion topic as arbitrary as banning discussion of IC vs Passives. Not letting people hear opposing view points is more detrimental then seeing a view point you disagree with.

jdietrich 10y ago

If you stood up in the middle of a geology lecture and tried to start an argument about Roe v. Wade, you'd rightfully be thrown out of the room. We're all affected by politics, but that doesn't mean that political discussion is necessary, useful or welcome in every context. This is Hacker News. It's not the front page of Reddit, it's a niche site with a clear remit. I'm absolutely fine with any general political discussion being permanently flagged as off topic. If people want to discuss something like internet censorship or science funding, I think this may be an appropriate venue. Discussions about the technology of politics like econometrics, polling error or voting machine design may also be relevant. Beyond that, the internet has no shortage of places to discuss politics; many of them have a vastly higher calibre of political discourse than HN.

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
> many [other places on the internet] have a vastly higher calibre of political discourse than HN. Can you (or anyone) point us to these? Not being sarcastic, but also somewhat skeptical - I've never encountered another public forum of HN's overall quality. I think the metaphor about the geology lecture is misleading - HN isn't a lecture hall, it's an exhibition hall, and if the only criteria for something being an exhibit is a capacity to intellectually stimulate, then I don't see why political discussion should be precluded.
jkimmel 10y ago
> If you stood up in the middle of a geology lecture and tried to start an argument about Roe v. Wade This is a false premise. I've spent my week at a large scientific conference. We have continually had panels re: our role and responsibility as scientists in the current political environment. Talks on hard technical issues have often included comments alluding to these roles and responsibilities. Technologists are so deeply involved in the way that modern society perceives the world outside their immediate community that it's absurd to believe they can be apolitical. Technologists need to discuss their roles and responsibilities as well. So no -- you would not be thrown out of a room for bringing up politics in a Geology lecture. HN isn't a Geology lecture at all. It's more like a quad at an engineering school. We're here because we're curious, we like to build things, we want to help create a better world. We cannot do that while insulating ourselves from the reality of our world's most powerful organizations and their leaders.