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I'm not really a fan of this move. I don't see it as an addiction that reduces its power over us by abstaining for a period of time. I also don't agree with app

I'm not really a fan of this move. I don't see it as an addiction that reduces its power over us by abstaining for a period of time. I also don't agree with applying system effects to individuals - while political discussion can appear to create a dulling or muting effect overall it doesn't mean that individual people aren't being positively influenced, in ways that might have even larger positive effects on the system over time. Similarly, preventing short term conflict might have negative longer term system effects over time. The detox/immune-system metaphor seems really suspect in other words. You could just as easily argue that there is a "virus" (the changing political realities, new realities dawning on us), and that ignoring the "virus" or "symptoms" will make the adjustment that much more traumatic, the later we accept that it's happening. Or to switch the connotation, perhaps instead of a "virus", look at it as a "disruptive innovation" - where if we act as an entrenched incumbent, we will be disrupted as our competitors rewrite the rules, and we will be too far behind to pivot successfully. Letting the community process the new inputs vigorously might seem more traumatic in the short term but it could also make us stronger overall. This just seems counter to the principles that I appreciate at HN.

sillysaurus3 10y ago
and that ignoring the "virus" or "symptoms" will make the adjustment that much more traumatic There are other sites to talk about politics on. Personally, I'm happy to come to HN to learn new things. Letting the community process the new inputs vigorously might seem more traumatic in the short term but it could also make us stronger overall. An extremely active 3000-day HN user with excellent technical contributions was recently banned due to the way they chose to express themselves regarding a political story. This made the community weaker, even if it was a necessary ban.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  An extremely active 3000-day user with excellent technical contributions was recently banned due to politics. They were banned because of what they chose to write, it wasn't just because of a political discussion.
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    Yeah, I reworded it. Thanks for calling that out.
  - mememachine 10y ago
    Is there anywhere to read what they wrote?
    - sillysaurus3 10y ago
      It seems better to respect their privacy. HN is a public forum, but it's good not to drag a member's name through the mud. What's done is done, and there wasn't much to be learned from the exchange anyway.
      - nkurz 10y ago
        What's done is done, and there wasn't much to be learned from the exchange anyway. I don't agree. I think it's worth reading and trying to understand the perspectives of the participants. I wouldn't guess that any of them feel embarrassed by their comments. Instead, I get the feeling that everyone feels like they did what they must and the outcome matched their expectations based on the world they each perceive. I think it's instructive to review the episode and consider whether a different approach might have been able to reach a better result.
    - SamReidHughes 10y ago
      Yeah. Read the post history of the HN mods.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        I was going to suggest that. https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sctb https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sctb I guess it is also necessary to turn on showdead in the settings.
    - 10y ago
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
I'm also concered that the timing of this can be partisan. Clearly Trump is still appointing high level cabinet members and discussing those things has merit. Yet during many of Obama's controversies, this site was allowed to chug away endlessly with an anti-Democratic, anti-Obama narrative. I think HN goes zero politics entirely or lets us continue as is. This move could be interpreted as pro-Trump especially if we're going to get the SoS announcement this week. >Our values are fragile No, they aren't. If your values can't handle a basic criticism then your values are terrible. HN shouldn't be creating 'safe spaces' for the status quo or the new administration. I'd rather get heckled at Hamilton than live in a society where we worry about hurting each other's values, feelings, sense of entitlements, etc. Open discourse is always the superior solution. If harm is being done, challenge it on a one by one basis. I see some very rude tones, borderline namecalling here, and other issues that get ignored by the mods. Encourage a polite discourse, don't eliminate it. I'd also be less liberal with posting rights. New accounts shouldn't be able to post on day one. A lot of these political firestorms are via 'green' accounts who may or may not be paid shills coming here and performing deflection and reading off bulletpoints or playing up typical 'whataboutisms'. Or regulars who post the same axe grinding over and over. Sadly, this goes against the religion of 'growth hacking' where conversations and new signups are the only metric that matters.
- ben0x539 10y ago
  > If your values can't handle a basic criticism then your values are terrible. I don't think you should judge the merit of moral values by how well their proponents deal with being shouted at on the internet.
- dang 10y ago
  > this site was allowed to chug away endlessly with an anti-Democratic, anti-Obama narrative [...] This move could be interpreted as pro-Trump The opposite people feel the opposite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108834
knucklesandwich 10y ago
Tech is just as political as actual politics, so this explanation that political discussion "causes harm" / "war" / "emotion over reason" strikes me as incredibly facile. And frankly the notion that software engineers need to segregate our political lives from our professional lives is unbelievably self-serving to certain interests and frankly a big problem with the culture today.
cnnsucks 10y ago
> I'm not really a fan of this move. Well I am a fan. What I'm not a fan of is yet another tech site being turned into a political controversy site by bored-at-work pseudo-geeks that need an audience for their outrages. Any time a popular tech site emerges the SJWs, wingnuts, freetards and moonbats turn up and chase off the geeks and nerds. We DO NOT NEED yet another facet in the outrage echo chamber. The Internet already provides more than enough venues for you to bitch about Trump or Comcast or gamergate or whatever you enjoy being outraged about. Just look at some of the pure political controversy crap that has appeared on HN recently: Wells Fargo says that its customers gave up right to sue by having their signatures forged https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13041730 Fake news. Nothing more nothing less. Wells Fargo claimed nothing of the sort. BoingBoing made it up from whole cloth. I gave back my U.S. citizenship. I’m going back to Serbia. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12963740 Click bait. Also many people familiar with SF found it to be highly improbable. Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12950501 Pure Trump-derangement syndrome click bait by a discredited partisan. Please; this stuff already gets enough play. Don't ruin HN echoing it as well. Just stop it. We all know what the controversies are; pretending that it's difficult to distinguish is just a cop-out to rationalize allowing it through.
AnimalMuppet 10y ago
I don't think "detox" is the point of what they're trying to do, so whether it would work as detox is irrelevant. I think they're concerned about things like community civility. Instead of the detox metaphor, imagine a community that is riled up about something, and is starting to riot - that is, to fight with itself. The authorities declare a curfew to get all sides off the streets and not fighting with each other for long enough for tempers to cool down. Unfortunately, that analogy breaks down, because we can all go just outside the city limits (that is, to other sites than HN) and get all riled up again there, and be ready to rumble here after the curfew ends. Still, it strikes me as an experiment worth running for a week.

sillysaurus3 10y ago

and that ignoring the "virus" or "symptoms" will make the adjustment that much more traumatic There are other sites to talk about politics on. Personally, I'm happy to come to HN to learn new things. Letting the community process the new inputs vigorously might seem more traumatic in the short term but it could also make us stronger overall. An extremely active 3000-day HN user with excellent technical contributions was recently banned due to the way they chose to express themselves regarding a political story. This made the community weaker, even if it was a necessary ban.

maxerickson 10y ago
An extremely active 3000-day user with excellent technical contributions was recently banned due to politics. They were banned because of what they chose to write, it wasn't just because of a political discussion.
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  Yeah, I reworded it. Thanks for calling that out.
- mememachine 10y ago
  Is there anywhere to read what they wrote?
  - sillysaurus3 10y ago
    It seems better to respect their privacy. HN is a public forum, but it's good not to drag a member's name through the mud. What's done is done, and there wasn't much to be learned from the exchange anyway.
    - nkurz 10y ago
      What's done is done, and there wasn't much to be learned from the exchange anyway. I don't agree. I think it's worth reading and trying to understand the perspectives of the participants. I wouldn't guess that any of them feel embarrassed by their comments. Instead, I get the feeling that everyone feels like they did what they must and the outcome matched their expectations based on the world they each perceive. I think it's instructive to review the episode and consider whether a different approach might have been able to reach a better result.
  - SamReidHughes 10y ago
    Yeah. Read the post history of the HN mods.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      I was going to suggest that. https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=dang https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sctb https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sctb I guess it is also necessary to turn on showdead in the settings.
  - 10y ago

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

I'm also concered that the timing of this can be partisan. Clearly Trump is still appointing high level cabinet members and discussing those things has merit. Yet during many of Obama's controversies, this site was allowed to chug away endlessly with an anti-Democratic, anti-Obama narrative. I think HN goes zero politics entirely or lets us continue as is. This move could be interpreted as pro-Trump especially if we're going to get the SoS announcement this week. >Our values are fragile No, they aren't. If your values can't handle a basic criticism then your values are terrible. HN shouldn't be creating 'safe spaces' for the status quo or the new administration. I'd rather get heckled at Hamilton than live in a society where we worry about hurting each other's values, feelings, sense of entitlements, etc. Open discourse is always the superior solution. If harm is being done, challenge it on a one by one basis. I see some very rude tones, borderline namecalling here, and other issues that get ignored by the mods. Encourage a polite discourse, don't eliminate it. I'd also be less liberal with posting rights. New accounts shouldn't be able to post on day one. A lot of these political firestorms are via 'green' accounts who may or may not be paid shills coming here and performing deflection and reading off bulletpoints or playing up typical 'whataboutisms'. Or regulars who post the same axe grinding over and over. Sadly, this goes against the religion of 'growth hacking' where conversations and new signups are the only metric that matters.

ben0x539 10y ago
> If your values can't handle a basic criticism then your values are terrible. I don't think you should judge the merit of moral values by how well their proponents deal with being shouted at on the internet.
dang 10y ago
> this site was allowed to chug away endlessly with an anti-Democratic, anti-Obama narrative [...] This move could be interpreted as pro-Trump The opposite people feel the opposite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108834

knucklesandwich 10y ago

Tech is just as political as actual politics, so this explanation that political discussion "causes harm" / "war" / "emotion over reason" strikes me as incredibly facile. And frankly the notion that software engineers need to segregate our political lives from our professional lives is unbelievably self-serving to certain interests and frankly a big problem with the culture today.

cnnsucks 10y ago

> I'm not really a fan of this move. Well I am a fan. What I'm not a fan of is yet another tech site being turned into a political controversy site by bored-at-work pseudo-geeks that need an audience for their outrages. Any time a popular tech site emerges the SJWs, wingnuts, freetards and moonbats turn up and chase off the geeks and nerds. We DO NOT NEED yet another facet in the outrage echo chamber. The Internet already provides more than enough venues for you to bitch about Trump or Comcast or gamergate or whatever you enjoy being outraged about. Just look at some of the pure political controversy crap that has appeared on HN recently: Wells Fargo says that its customers gave up right to sue by having their signatures forged https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13041730 Fake news. Nothing more nothing less. Wells Fargo claimed nothing of the sort. BoingBoing made it up from whole cloth. I gave back my U.S. citizenship. I’m going back to Serbia. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12963740 Click bait. Also many people familiar with SF found it to be highly improbable. Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12950501 Pure Trump-derangement syndrome click bait by a discredited partisan. Please; this stuff already gets enough play. Don't ruin HN echoing it as well. Just stop it. We all know what the controversies are; pretending that it's difficult to distinguish is just a cop-out to rationalize allowing it through.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

I don't think "detox" is the point of what they're trying to do, so whether it would work as detox is irrelevant. I think they're concerned about things like community civility. Instead of the detox metaphor, imagine a community that is riled up about something, and is starting to riot - that is, to fight with itself. The authorities declare a curfew to get all sides off the streets and not fighting with each other for long enough for tempers to cool down. Unfortunately, that analogy breaks down, because we can all go just outside the city limits (that is, to other sites than HN) and get all riled up again there, and be ready to rumble here after the curfew ends. Still, it strikes me as an experiment worth running for a week.