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People of color didn't become scientists because somebody made a chemistry kit in 1937 featuring an Egyptian slave. Girls didn't become scientists because some

People of color didn't become scientists because somebody made a chemistry kit in 1937 featuring an Egyptian slave. Girls didn't become scientists because some companies science competition described them as caring and nurturing during WWII. I've also heard different versions of the clock story. Not saying everybody has an equal start - for sure not everybody is or was encouraged to become a scientist to the same degree. But it is not really an external force (or patriarchy and white supremacy) that is the culprit... Pity, it would actually be interesting to discuss how to encourage kids into science, without the leading victim narrative.

deleted 10y ago
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yedava 10y ago
I think you are strawmanning the article. The point about the Ethiopian (not Egyptian) slave is that it is indicative of the fact that no black would be in a position to purchase that chemistry set. It is a historical fact that blacks were discriminated against and chemistry sets not being marketed to them is just one consequence of it. Don't know why you are so bent on denying history in favor of pushing your victimhood narrative.
- facepalm 10y ago
  My guess would be that the Egyptian slave thing stems from another time where it was exotic to travel and only adventurers would go to foreign lands and bring back people from there (slave or apprentice - would like to see the original kit). And there was a lot of mysticism around exotic countries, so having such a person on your mystery show (alchemy) would simply increase the effect. Yes, it sounds stupid today, but we are talking about a time before the invention of Google, antibiotics or routine international flights. I'm sure other than that PoCs generally had less access to chemistry kits, probably mostly because they couldn't afford them. But I don't think that Chemistry kit was the issue.
jonahrd 10y ago
This is a painfully restrictive way to view the world. What's the harm in looking at this problem as a complex system that we can work on until we reach a solution? There are without a doubt societal pressure on women and people of color not to pursue careers in STEM. All you have to do is open your eyes a little bit and it's obvious.
- Kroniker 10y ago
  As the stereotypical white-cis-male-scientist, this sort of statement has always bugged me. I was pushed from science at every turn- multiple teachers said I would be no good, wasn't allowed to take advanced courses in HS, was seen as a wannabe by friends and peers, but at every step I also saw a concerted effort to get women and minorities into my field of choice (physics). Support groups, gender or race only clubs (never white or male), even banners celebrating women in science. In social settings, women & girls were always praised highly when they decided to pursue maths- whereas guys got the "what are you, a show off?" treatment. What are these societal pressures that exist "without a doubt"? Every time I've tried to dig into the subject, I can only find ephemera and anecdotal testimony. Pressures echo from generations gone by, I know, but to what extent? And I know I haven't lived the life of someone systematically oppressed, but at least in the area I group up in, it seemed the exact opposite was true- systematic uplifting. I'm not trying to say that they don't face any hardships, though I may not be privy to them, but rather that this whole problem could be rephrased without the women/minority angle. "People are discouraged from going in to science." is a better way to look at it, imo.
  - burkaman 10y ago
    Stereotypical childhood toys, gender stereotypes that widely persist despite the efforts of the people making those "women in science" banners and starting those clubs, the standard difficulties of entering a group or field where nobody looks like you, very widespread reports from women of discrimination and harassment, several studies where professors are less likely to respond to emails from people with minority-sounding names, etc. You really don't see any of these stereotypes in your daily life? Why are physics departments 80% men [1]? Just random chance? [1] https://www.aps.org/programs/women/resources/statistics.cfm https://www.aps.org/programs/women/resources/statistics.cfm

deleted 10y ago

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yedava 10y ago

I think you are strawmanning the article. The point about the Ethiopian (not Egyptian) slave is that it is indicative of the fact that no black would be in a position to purchase that chemistry set. It is a historical fact that blacks were discriminated against and chemistry sets not being marketed to them is just one consequence of it. Don't know why you are so bent on denying history in favor of pushing your victimhood narrative.

facepalm 10y ago
My guess would be that the Egyptian slave thing stems from another time where it was exotic to travel and only adventurers would go to foreign lands and bring back people from there (slave or apprentice - would like to see the original kit). And there was a lot of mysticism around exotic countries, so having such a person on your mystery show (alchemy) would simply increase the effect. Yes, it sounds stupid today, but we are talking about a time before the invention of Google, antibiotics or routine international flights. I'm sure other than that PoCs generally had less access to chemistry kits, probably mostly because they couldn't afford them. But I don't think that Chemistry kit was the issue.

jonahrd 10y ago

This is a painfully restrictive way to view the world. What's the harm in looking at this problem as a complex system that we can work on until we reach a solution? There are without a doubt societal pressure on women and people of color not to pursue careers in STEM. All you have to do is open your eyes a little bit and it's obvious.

Kroniker 10y ago
As the stereotypical white-cis-male-scientist, this sort of statement has always bugged me. I was pushed from science at every turn- multiple teachers said I would be no good, wasn't allowed to take advanced courses in HS, was seen as a wannabe by friends and peers, but at every step I also saw a concerted effort to get women and minorities into my field of choice (physics). Support groups, gender or race only clubs (never white or male), even banners celebrating women in science. In social settings, women & girls were always praised highly when they decided to pursue maths- whereas guys got the "what are you, a show off?" treatment. What are these societal pressures that exist "without a doubt"? Every time I've tried to dig into the subject, I can only find ephemera and anecdotal testimony. Pressures echo from generations gone by, I know, but to what extent? And I know I haven't lived the life of someone systematically oppressed, but at least in the area I group up in, it seemed the exact opposite was true- systematic uplifting. I'm not trying to say that they don't face any hardships, though I may not be privy to them, but rather that this whole problem could be rephrased without the women/minority angle. "People are discouraged from going in to science." is a better way to look at it, imo.
- burkaman 10y ago
  Stereotypical childhood toys, gender stereotypes that widely persist despite the efforts of the people making those "women in science" banners and starting those clubs, the standard difficulties of entering a group or field where nobody looks like you, very widespread reports from women of discrimination and harassment, several studies where professors are less likely to respond to emails from people with minority-sounding names, etc. You really don't see any of these stereotypes in your daily life? Why are physics departments 80% men [1]? Just random chance? [1] https://www.aps.org/programs/women/resources/statistics.cfm https://www.aps.org/programs/women/resources/statistics.cfm