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Many HN posts about JS devolve into a "I don't like Javascript because I'm a real programmer, not a frontend" slugfest. As someone who is invested in the long-

Many HN posts about JS devolve into a "I don't like Javascript because I'm a real programmer, not a frontend" slugfest. As someone who is invested in the long-term success of the JS ecosystem, it becomes a lot easier just to remove yourself from the discussion because a lot of the community is so negative about the (older versions) of the language and ecosystem, purely on ideology.

zeveb 10y ago
> As someone who is invested in the long-term success of the JS ecosystem, it becomes a lot easier just to remove yourself from the discussion because a lot of the community is so negative about the (older versions) of the language and ecosystem, purely on ideology. If a lot of people are so negative about it, is it worth even considering whether they might be correct? Is it not ideological to refuse to do so?
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  Of course it's worth it: we've considered it, and we think you're wrong.
  - striking 10y ago
    Or not even just that one is particularly "wrong", but that it's a matter of opinion that is differently valid to different people. That's as much reasoning as you can do on the scale of an entire language, without getting more concrete about your arguments. edit: also, "ideological" is unfair. We know JS isn't godlike. We use it regardless.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      That was more or less my point. So thanks for clarifying it.
- dwaltrip 10y ago
  You honestly believe people who build web apps with javascript are not "real programmers"? Would you like to elaborate on that? It's not surprising that many find it offensive when people don't bother to differentiate between newbie programmers who have just learned the basics of jQuery and experienced front-end developers capable of building complex, well-architected applications.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > You honestly believe people who build web apps with javascript are not "real programmers" I didn't write that, nor do I believe. JavaScript is a programming language — albeit a truly awful one — and thus people who get work done in it are by definition really programmers. And some of them have done some really quite amazing things with it. That doesn't change the fact that the success of JavaScript is an embarrassment for our profession. Sometimes everyone is negative about something which really isn't all that bad. Negativity about JavaScript isn't one of those times.
    - spion 10y ago
      JavaScript is pretty much average for a dynamic language. Also, it doesn't matter how many people think its awful. What matters are the facts they present.
    - dwaltrip 10y ago
      Hmm, I suppose the paragraph before the one you quoted was the more problematic one. I apologize for downvoting, I should have been more careful. Although it may have helped if you would have made it clear you didn't agree with the paragraph prior to the one you quoted. Regarding Javascript itself, yeah it has some warts. But modern Javascript (ES6) is actually not too bad. IMO, it really isn't that much worse than Python or Ruby (which I've used a good amount).
JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Oh. I thought it devolved into "Use react".
- sdegutis 10y ago
  Both actually. Split roughly 50/50.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

zeveb 10y ago

> As someone who is invested in the long-term success of the JS ecosystem, it becomes a lot easier just to remove yourself from the discussion because a lot of the community is so negative about the (older versions) of the language and ecosystem, purely on ideology. If a lot of people are so negative about it, is it worth even considering whether they might be correct? Is it not ideological to refuse to do so?

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Of course it's worth it: we've considered it, and we think you're wrong.
- striking 10y ago
  Or not even just that one is particularly "wrong", but that it's a matter of opinion that is differently valid to different people. That's as much reasoning as you can do on the scale of an entire language, without getting more concrete about your arguments. edit: also, "ideological" is unfair. We know JS isn't godlike. We use it regardless.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    That was more or less my point. So thanks for clarifying it.
dwaltrip 10y ago
You honestly believe people who build web apps with javascript are not "real programmers"? Would you like to elaborate on that? It's not surprising that many find it offensive when people don't bother to differentiate between newbie programmers who have just learned the basics of jQuery and experienced front-end developers capable of building complex, well-architected applications.
- zeveb 10y ago
  > You honestly believe people who build web apps with javascript are not "real programmers" I didn't write that, nor do I believe. JavaScript is a programming language — albeit a truly awful one — and thus people who get work done in it are by definition really programmers. And some of them have done some really quite amazing things with it. That doesn't change the fact that the success of JavaScript is an embarrassment for our profession. Sometimes everyone is negative about something which really isn't all that bad. Negativity about JavaScript isn't one of those times.
  - spion 10y ago
    JavaScript is pretty much average for a dynamic language. Also, it doesn't matter how many people think its awful. What matters are the facts they present.
  - dwaltrip 10y ago
    Hmm, I suppose the paragraph before the one you quoted was the more problematic one. I apologize for downvoting, I should have been more careful. Although it may have helped if you would have made it clear you didn't agree with the paragraph prior to the one you quoted. Regarding Javascript itself, yeah it has some warts. But modern Javascript (ES6) is actually not too bad. IMO, it really isn't that much worse than Python or Ruby (which I've used a good amount).

JustSomeNobody 10y ago

Oh. I thought it devolved into "Use react".

sdegutis 10y ago
Both actually. Split roughly 50/50.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]