6 ms·

AFAIK the health stuff at DeepMind is just one part, the research division is the main bit. Not like IBM Watson consultancy-pretending-to-be-AI-research. > I'm

by tfgg 10y ago

AFAIK the health stuff at DeepMind is just one part, the research division is the main bit. Not like IBM Watson consultancy-pretending-to-be-AI-research. > I'm just not sure what else separates them from any other "AI" (read machine learning/algorithm-building/efficiency consultancy) out there. probably the amount of pure research they produce: https://deepmind.com/research/publications/ https://deepmind.com/research/publications/

dpandey 10y ago
Those are 2 very different things as much as we'd like to believe they're one since they're within the same company. I wouldn't be surprised if google sunsets the company and absorbs the employees in its more profitable products.
- deong 10y ago
  No way I could see that happening. I mean, they might conceivably decide to fold the group into Google Research rather than keep the DeepMind name, but I doubt they'd do even that due to the name recognition that DeepMind has garnered even among the general public. The idea that they'd take the people and put them to work making Blogger better or something? Not a chance. AI research is pretty much Google's core function. They'd no more break up that functional area than Apple would take Jonny Ive's team and put them answering support calls.
  - dpandey 10y ago
    On the contrary, DeepMind is a subsidiary in the new alphabet structure and is looking at a stick wielding CFO with a profitability question on her face. If they don't figure out compelling products in reasonable time, the researchers will become part of google research (maybe retaining the deepmind name as part of a group within google research) and the engineers will become absorbed or find new jobs. Also, DeepMind is not such a big name outside our little geek community. Try it with someone :)
    - RushAndAPush 10y ago
      Deepmind isn't completely separate from Google. They have a team that helps apply their research to google products. I find it highly unlikely the team would be dissolved considering how successful and prestigious they are becomeing.
    - dpandey 10y ago
      I wasn't implying that DeepMind (or its research team) are going to be dissolved. My point was: I wouldn't be surprised if that happens if they don't find compelling products to make money off of given Alphabet's revenue focus. Also it can go the consultancy type route it currently seems to be headed for and consultancies can make a lot of money (look at IBM), so they could be a great business. But that might leave the researchers unsatisfied with their impact. My point was that ideally we like to believe that research supports products, but generally speaking, most of Google research or Microsoft research papers are rarely applicable to their products. And good researchers like being independent (that's how you woo them - with the promise of independence) so you can't usually dictate what they work on.
      - deong 10y ago
        > My point was that ideally we like to believe that research supports products, but generally speaking, most of Google research or Microsoft research papers are rarely applicable to their products. I have no inside information here, but my hunch is that that's overly pessimistic. From the outside, we hear about DeepMind finding cats in YouTube videos or learning to play Atari games or Go, and it's tempting to say, "Google doesn't sell Go programs, so what was the point." However, Google does do incredibly good image labeling in Google Photos. Their autonomous vehicles might eventually be a profit maker, potentially using deep reinforcement learning methods developed to play Atari games. Certainly, Google Translate and Inbox use ideas developed from their machine learning groups. You're right that there's often a pressure to make internal research groups more profit-driven and more connected to the revenue stream that runs a company. Microsoft Research saw this happen to some degree 10 or so years ago. But Google's core competitive advantage is their ability to collect and analyze data. Data is the revenue stream that runs the company. Also, I think the "independence" aspect of research is overblown to some extent. Almost no one is truly independent. If nothing else, you're subject to the needs of funding agencies. Typically, researchers just want the ability to work on problems that interest them using ideas they have some control over developing. You can do that inside a company, provided that company is interested in the same types of problems you're interested in. That's been the success of corporate AI/ML labs -- many of the best researchers want to go there because it's a steady stream of interesting work free from the need to do the constant dance for grant money.

by tfgg 10y ago

dpandey 10y ago

Those are 2 very different things as much as we'd like to believe they're one since they're within the same company. I wouldn't be surprised if google sunsets the company and absorbs the employees in its more profitable products.

deong 10y ago
No way I could see that happening. I mean, they might conceivably decide to fold the group into Google Research rather than keep the DeepMind name, but I doubt they'd do even that due to the name recognition that DeepMind has garnered even among the general public. The idea that they'd take the people and put them to work making Blogger better or something? Not a chance. AI research is pretty much Google's core function. They'd no more break up that functional area than Apple would take Jonny Ive's team and put them answering support calls.
- dpandey 10y ago
  On the contrary, DeepMind is a subsidiary in the new alphabet structure and is looking at a stick wielding CFO with a profitability question on her face. If they don't figure out compelling products in reasonable time, the researchers will become part of google research (maybe retaining the deepmind name as part of a group within google research) and the engineers will become absorbed or find new jobs. Also, DeepMind is not such a big name outside our little geek community. Try it with someone :)
  - RushAndAPush 10y ago
    Deepmind isn't completely separate from Google. They have a team that helps apply their research to google products. I find it highly unlikely the team would be dissolved considering how successful and prestigious they are becomeing.
  - dpandey 10y ago
    I wasn't implying that DeepMind (or its research team) are going to be dissolved. My point was: I wouldn't be surprised if that happens if they don't find compelling products to make money off of given Alphabet's revenue focus. Also it can go the consultancy type route it currently seems to be headed for and consultancies can make a lot of money (look at IBM), so they could be a great business. But that might leave the researchers unsatisfied with their impact. My point was that ideally we like to believe that research supports products, but generally speaking, most of Google research or Microsoft research papers are rarely applicable to their products. And good researchers like being independent (that's how you woo them - with the promise of independence) so you can't usually dictate what they work on.
    - deong 10y ago
      > My point was that ideally we like to believe that research supports products, but generally speaking, most of Google research or Microsoft research papers are rarely applicable to their products. I have no inside information here, but my hunch is that that's overly pessimistic. From the outside, we hear about DeepMind finding cats in YouTube videos or learning to play Atari games or Go, and it's tempting to say, "Google doesn't sell Go programs, so what was the point." However, Google does do incredibly good image labeling in Google Photos. Their autonomous vehicles might eventually be a profit maker, potentially using deep reinforcement learning methods developed to play Atari games. Certainly, Google Translate and Inbox use ideas developed from their machine learning groups. You're right that there's often a pressure to make internal research groups more profit-driven and more connected to the revenue stream that runs a company. Microsoft Research saw this happen to some degree 10 or so years ago. But Google's core competitive advantage is their ability to collect and analyze data. Data is the revenue stream that runs the company. Also, I think the "independence" aspect of research is overblown to some extent. Almost no one is truly independent. If nothing else, you're subject to the needs of funding agencies. Typically, researchers just want the ability to work on problems that interest them using ideas they have some control over developing. You can do that inside a company, provided that company is interested in the same types of problems you're interested in. That's been the success of corporate AI/ML labs -- many of the best researchers want to go there because it's a steady stream of interesting work free from the need to do the constant dance for grant money.