11 ms·

> screenplay versioning can get a bit esoteric I'm curious. What features to writers need that git couldn't provide?

by zeroer 10y ago

Keyframe 10y ago
It's not versioning like you would find in software development. Google will provide you with details (first link for me): http://www.scriptchick.net/Info/Revisions.html http://www.scriptchick.net/Info/Revisions.html The gist of it is that each version gets distributed to various channels of pre-production and production. Once locked, each page has its number and if the page changes, it stays in (!), but new one is added according to certain rules. In a way it's like a commit history printed out, but isn't. It's weird, but it works.
- wtallis 10y ago
  Looks like screenplays are heavily afflicted by a cult of doing it the hard way. Computer programmers have moved beyond punched cards and manual line numbering, but Hollywood is still pointlessly (proudly?) stuck in the typewriter era. Nothing in that article supports the assertion that screenplays have a different concept of versioning than software developers. Screenwriters just have a different preferred format for displaying diffs, a different convention for version numbering (but that's completely irrelevant to a tool like git), and a paper-saving way of handling insertions and removals, when printing out on paper (again, irrelevant to git). Advice like "If it's only one or two words that are different, consider just whiting out the existing script and writing it in, rather than reinventing the wheel and generating a new color." makes it very clear that this industry hasn't even tried to use technology to make these problems go away. I wonder how long until this whole system gets replaced by tablets that always automatically show the latest revision, without requiring the use of esoteric paper colors.
  - Keyframe 10y ago
    I agree that it's stuck in ye 100 old way of doing things. New things are tried out constantly though. Scripties are on tablets these days with fancy tools and everything. DIT, new cutting-edge cameras and tools are first introduced here. Trouble is with screenplays still. Screenplay is a tool, a blueprint that serves various departments throughout pre-production, production and post-production. That blueprint is also in flux as others are using it. I guess, well I believe one could modernise the whole screenplay pipeline. Trouble is you would have to make a significant advance in order for people to start using it. Every dept. except acting/blocking could start using new system(s) right away. Acting and blocking would still prefer paper. Take into consideration that it's easy to criticise a system as an outsider. You would have to witness first-hand an organised chaos that film and/or TV production is in order to appreciate every single idiosyncrasy (at a first glance) that makes it all work. Prime example are cameras. Usually people (who are for the first time on a set) ask about camera. Why this camera, why not that, etc. It works and doesn't stop the production train. If you can avoid slowing down anything on set (or before or after) and THEN introduce significant benefits, people will listen and welcome you immediately. This is an industry that takes in new technologies all the time, no hesitation. Provided they bring significant boost to productivity.
    - wtallis 10y ago
      > Screenplay is a tool, a blueprint that serves various departments throughout pre-production, production and post-production. That blueprint is also in flux as others are using it. I guess, well I believe one could modernise the whole screenplay pipeline. Trouble is you would have to make a significant advance in order for people to start using it. Every dept. except acting/blocking could start using new system(s) right away. Acting and blocking would still prefer paper. I think the key insight that's missing is that the content of the screenplay is separate from the presentation. It sounds like there's no reason why a screenplay couldn't be edited as plain text in a font more readable than Courier with changes tracked by an off the shelf version control system. The editor shouldn't have to pay heed to concerns of pagination or paper coloring or version numbering, because all of that can be rather trivially automated by inspecting the version history and rendering a printable PDF as needed. Some actors may prefer looking at an archaic presentation of the information, but that requirement doesn't need to influence how anybody else interacts with the information.
      - Keyframe 10y ago
        I have to provide some more insight. Regarding font - Courier 12pt is standard monospace used. People have (and do, but not often) use different monotypes. Using a monotype with certain margins and along with several other rules yields you a consistent overview of the script where the result of using all of that is approximately 1 minute of screen time per one page of script. That's why it's used. Non-mono font wouldn't yield same results. Further on, people do not interact with scripts on paper anymore. You do print yourself a copy if you prefer to read it like that. Also, actors (and some people on set) do have a physical copies due to the nature of table reads (I've seen tablets on table reads), and blocking (moving around the set with script in hand, rehearsing). In reality, no one has to even think about it. Reason is because there is one (or select few) producer and multiple consumers of the script. One persons job is to make sure everyone has the latest revision that they base their work on and that's it. It would be an issue if everyone had commit rights, but they don't. They just checkout latest commit and have the person that checks it out for them! Sounds dire, but is actually painless.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Looks like screenplays are heavily afflicted by a cult of doing it the hard way. Because programmers, especially on the UNIX world, are known to be so much more forward looking and having it the "easy way"? https://gist.github.com/cookrn/4015437 https://gist.github.com/cookrn/4015437 >Nothing in that article supports the assertion that screenplays have a different concept of versioning than software developers. Screenwriters just have a different preferred format for displaying diffs, a different convention for version numbering (but that's completely irrelevant to a tool like git), and a paper-saving way of handling insertions and removals, when printing out on paper (again, irrelevant to git). So they have absolutely no use for Git, except as a lower-level versioning engine in the backend, with all the actual results and presentation layer reformatted into screenplay-specific views. So why should they care for Git specifically over any other engine that provides the latter out of the box?
    - wtallis 10y ago
      > So why should they care for Git specifically over any other engine that provides the latter out of the box? Is that question actually meant for me? I made no suggestion that git should be used to replace any existing software in the screenwriting profession. I merely used it as a canonical example of a software development version control system, to refute the statement that "It's not versioning like you would find in software development." There's nothing fundamentally different about the revision tracking done for screenplays than for software; git's inadequacies for the task aren't in the core functionality but in the window dressings, which most software developers also complain about.
  - mcphage 10y ago
    > I wonder how long until this whole system gets replaced by tablets that always automatically show the latest revision, without requiring the use of esoteric paper colors. Do they also not run out of batteries when you're filming in the middle of a desert at night?
    - wtallis 10y ago
      Did I miss the part where the paper scripts are printed with radium ink?
      - skepticaldrunk 10y ago
        No. But you did miss the part where paper doesn't have batteries.
        wtallis 10y ago
        But the flashlights or other light sources needed for the posited filming in the middle of a desert at night do need batteries every bit as much as a tablet would.
        skepticaldrunk 10y ago
        I'm praying you're a troll. But if you're not, your flippant dismissal of thousands of man hours of experience in an industry in which you have no experience lead me to believe that I really hope I don't depend on any systems you've ever touched. This is the first thread I've ever commented on for HN, mostly because I'm usually out of my depth. This one, I'm actually an expert on. This will also be my last comment here, mostly because I expected more than your bristling, reactionary, unobservant level of discourse. All the best. I hope you find the peace you're looking for, and that it's not through arguments on the internet.
        mcphage 10y ago
        They need lights for filming. That's a given. But once they have lights for filming, they have the light they need to read scripts. But light isn't enough for tablets, they all need to be independently charged, or you they do nothing. That's a huge knock against their usability.
- idlewords 10y ago
  That is an amazing link, thank you. I particularly like the very specific sequence of paper colors used to indicate the revision number, followed by a note that because everyone needs to use white paper for practical reasons, they just print the color name at the top.
  - Keyframe 10y ago
    There's a bunch of things like that in production! Most, if not all, were learned the hard way. For example, camera cards and offloading them into a computer. There's a specific sequence which reveals where people got burned on each step. This is what you do with Alexa for example. You get an unlocked card from assistant which you put into the camera. You go to either quick erase or full erase (format) on camera and then you have to press two buttons simultaneously on camera to OK the erase, like launching nukes. Then you get some red gaffer tape and write down the cards number (A016 for example) and tape it OVER the flapping gate cover of the card on the camera. Once you're done with the card, it's full or whatever, you take it out, lock the writing lock on it, put it in its plastic sleeve and tape shut that sleeve with that piece of red tape with number on it. If no sleeve, tape goes over the card. Then you give the card to your assistant or DIT or whoever is in charge of offloading on your set. He offloads the card, removes the tape, releases the lock and gives it back to you as ready to use. There are multiple cards like that in circulation at any given time.
coldtea 10y ago
>What features to writers need that git couldn't provide? Ease of use, for one.

> screenplay versioning can get a bit esoteric I'm curious. What features to writers need that git couldn't provide?

by zeroer 10y ago

> screenplay versioning can get a bit esoteric I'm curious. What features to writers need that git couldn't provide?

It's not versioning like you would find in software development. Google will provide you with details (first link for me): http://www.scriptchick.net/Info/Revisions.html http://www.scriptchick.net/Info/Revisions.html The gist of it is that each version gets distributed to various channels of pre-production and production. Once locked, each page has its number and if the page changes, it stays in (!), but new one is added according to certain rules. In a way it's like a commit history printed out, but isn't. It's weird, but it works.

wtallis 10y ago
Looks like screenplays are heavily afflicted by a cult of doing it the hard way. Computer programmers have moved beyond punched cards and manual line numbering, but Hollywood is still pointlessly (proudly?) stuck in the typewriter era. Nothing in that article supports the assertion that screenplays have a different concept of versioning than software developers. Screenwriters just have a different preferred format for displaying diffs, a different convention for version numbering (but that's completely irrelevant to a tool like git), and a paper-saving way of handling insertions and removals, when printing out on paper (again, irrelevant to git). Advice like "If it's only one or two words that are different, consider just whiting out the existing script and writing it in, rather than reinventing the wheel and generating a new color." makes it very clear that this industry hasn't even tried to use technology to make these problems go away. I wonder how long until this whole system gets replaced by tablets that always automatically show the latest revision, without requiring the use of esoteric paper colors.
- Keyframe 10y ago
  I agree that it's stuck in ye 100 old way of doing things. New things are tried out constantly though. Scripties are on tablets these days with fancy tools and everything. DIT, new cutting-edge cameras and tools are first introduced here. Trouble is with screenplays still. Screenplay is a tool, a blueprint that serves various departments throughout pre-production, production and post-production. That blueprint is also in flux as others are using it. I guess, well I believe one could modernise the whole screenplay pipeline. Trouble is you would have to make a significant advance in order for people to start using it. Every dept. except acting/blocking could start using new system(s) right away. Acting and blocking would still prefer paper. Take into consideration that it's easy to criticise a system as an outsider. You would have to witness first-hand an organised chaos that film and/or TV production is in order to appreciate every single idiosyncrasy (at a first glance) that makes it all work. Prime example are cameras. Usually people (who are for the first time on a set) ask about camera. Why this camera, why not that, etc. It works and doesn't stop the production train. If you can avoid slowing down anything on set (or before or after) and THEN introduce significant benefits, people will listen and welcome you immediately. This is an industry that takes in new technologies all the time, no hesitation. Provided they bring significant boost to productivity.
  - wtallis 10y ago
    > Screenplay is a tool, a blueprint that serves various departments throughout pre-production, production and post-production. That blueprint is also in flux as others are using it. I guess, well I believe one could modernise the whole screenplay pipeline. Trouble is you would have to make a significant advance in order for people to start using it. Every dept. except acting/blocking could start using new system(s) right away. Acting and blocking would still prefer paper. I think the key insight that's missing is that the content of the screenplay is separate from the presentation. It sounds like there's no reason why a screenplay couldn't be edited as plain text in a font more readable than Courier with changes tracked by an off the shelf version control system. The editor shouldn't have to pay heed to concerns of pagination or paper coloring or version numbering, because all of that can be rather trivially automated by inspecting the version history and rendering a printable PDF as needed. Some actors may prefer looking at an archaic presentation of the information, but that requirement doesn't need to influence how anybody else interacts with the information.
    - Keyframe 10y ago
      I have to provide some more insight. Regarding font - Courier 12pt is standard monospace used. People have (and do, but not often) use different monotypes. Using a monotype with certain margins and along with several other rules yields you a consistent overview of the script where the result of using all of that is approximately 1 minute of screen time per one page of script. That's why it's used. Non-mono font wouldn't yield same results. Further on, people do not interact with scripts on paper anymore. You do print yourself a copy if you prefer to read it like that. Also, actors (and some people on set) do have a physical copies due to the nature of table reads (I've seen tablets on table reads), and blocking (moving around the set with script in hand, rehearsing). In reality, no one has to even think about it. Reason is because there is one (or select few) producer and multiple consumers of the script. One persons job is to make sure everyone has the latest revision that they base their work on and that's it. It would be an issue if everyone had commit rights, but they don't. They just checkout latest commit and have the person that checks it out for them! Sounds dire, but is actually painless.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Looks like screenplays are heavily afflicted by a cult of doing it the hard way. Because programmers, especially on the UNIX world, are known to be so much more forward looking and having it the "easy way"? https://gist.github.com/cookrn/4015437 https://gist.github.com/cookrn/4015437 >Nothing in that article supports the assertion that screenplays have a different concept of versioning than software developers. Screenwriters just have a different preferred format for displaying diffs, a different convention for version numbering (but that's completely irrelevant to a tool like git), and a paper-saving way of handling insertions and removals, when printing out on paper (again, irrelevant to git). So they have absolutely no use for Git, except as a lower-level versioning engine in the backend, with all the actual results and presentation layer reformatted into screenplay-specific views. So why should they care for Git specifically over any other engine that provides the latter out of the box?
  - wtallis 10y ago
    > So why should they care for Git specifically over any other engine that provides the latter out of the box? Is that question actually meant for me? I made no suggestion that git should be used to replace any existing software in the screenwriting profession. I merely used it as a canonical example of a software development version control system, to refute the statement that "It's not versioning like you would find in software development." There's nothing fundamentally different about the revision tracking done for screenplays than for software; git's inadequacies for the task aren't in the core functionality but in the window dressings, which most software developers also complain about.
- mcphage 10y ago
  > I wonder how long until this whole system gets replaced by tablets that always automatically show the latest revision, without requiring the use of esoteric paper colors. Do they also not run out of batteries when you're filming in the middle of a desert at night?
  - wtallis 10y ago
    Did I miss the part where the paper scripts are printed with radium ink?
    - skepticaldrunk 10y ago
      No. But you did miss the part where paper doesn't have batteries.
      - wtallis 10y ago
        But the flashlights or other light sources needed for the posited filming in the middle of a desert at night do need batteries every bit as much as a tablet would.
        skepticaldrunk 10y ago
        I'm praying you're a troll. But if you're not, your flippant dismissal of thousands of man hours of experience in an industry in which you have no experience lead me to believe that I really hope I don't depend on any systems you've ever touched. This is the first thread I've ever commented on for HN, mostly because I'm usually out of my depth. This one, I'm actually an expert on. This will also be my last comment here, mostly because I expected more than your bristling, reactionary, unobservant level of discourse. All the best. I hope you find the peace you're looking for, and that it's not through arguments on the internet.
        mcphage 10y ago
        They need lights for filming. That's a given. But once they have lights for filming, they have the light they need to read scripts. But light isn't enough for tablets, they all need to be independently charged, or you they do nothing. That's a huge knock against their usability.
idlewords 10y ago
That is an amazing link, thank you. I particularly like the very specific sequence of paper colors used to indicate the revision number, followed by a note that because everyone needs to use white paper for practical reasons, they just print the color name at the top.
- Keyframe 10y ago
  There's a bunch of things like that in production! Most, if not all, were learned the hard way. For example, camera cards and offloading them into a computer. There's a specific sequence which reveals where people got burned on each step. This is what you do with Alexa for example. You get an unlocked card from assistant which you put into the camera. You go to either quick erase or full erase (format) on camera and then you have to press two buttons simultaneously on camera to OK the erase, like launching nukes. Then you get some red gaffer tape and write down the cards number (A016 for example) and tape it OVER the flapping gate cover of the card on the camera. Once you're done with the card, it's full or whatever, you take it out, lock the writing lock on it, put it in its plastic sleeve and tape shut that sleeve with that piece of red tape with number on it. If no sleeve, tape goes over the card. Then you give the card to your assistant or DIT or whoever is in charge of offloading on your set. He offloads the card, removes the tape, releases the lock and gives it back to you as ready to use. There are multiple cards like that in circulation at any given time.

coldtea 10y ago

>What features to writers need that git couldn't provide? Ease of use, for one.