6 ms·

"Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't imp

by biofox 10y ago

"Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference. This was the main take away for me. It seems like it might be useful for managing employees / colleagues too.

DanBC 10y ago
The other important thing is to recognise that children can't plan. If you're in a hot room and ask a child to put some warm clothing on they're not going to be able to plan for the cold weather outside, and they'll reject the clothing because they're warm. At that point you can turn it into a huge thing, or you can just take the coat with you until you get outside and they get cold. At which point you let them put it on. And if they still don't want it, well, most children aren't going to let themselves get hypothermic.
sopooneo 10y ago
Or populations.
- SerLava 10y ago
  Electorates. I'm being rather edgy.
jessriedel 10y ago
I don't understand how people think this is honest. You're clearly using your cognitive advantage (or in the case of a boss, usually an organizational info advantage) to trick the other person. I remember as I grew up noticing when adults were doing this, and I resented them for it. Why would I want my kids to feel that way about me?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- pappyo 10y ago
  Any cognitive advantage that is abused will be seen as manipulative, absolutely. The way to make "the illusion of choice" work is to be selective about it. You start out by giving the 4 year old the illusion of choice (the jacket or the sweater), but what you're really doing is coaching the child to make appropriate decisions. After a few times, you won't have to give the child the choice anymore, because they will know the parameters of the choices for the challenge facing them. You could simply say "let's get ready to go out." Same thing with a boss. (S)he can use this cognitive tool to coach good decisions. People like choice and they like being right. Using this method allows for both.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    You're justifying it as being in the child's (or employee's) interest, but you're not actually denying the transgression. Lying becomes less worse when you lie for someone else's benefit but (1) that doesn't make it not lying, (2) the other person can still rightfully resent it, (3) you generally shouldn't trust yourself to only lie in another's interest. Regarding the last one: I often see normal, reasonably good parents lie to their children just to get relief, and I'm sure they can justify it to themselves as in the child's interest, but it's really just self-serving. (You can replace "lie" with "white lie", "trick", or whatever euphemism you want for this mild, but real, transgression.) I think one good check on this is whether the child would be OK with it after-the-fact, assuming some hypothetical wisdom and hindsight (like becoming an adult). If they aren't OK with it, then you probably shouldn't do it. And I'm telling you right now: as an adult, I don't like the fact that adults did this to me when I was a child.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      On that note: On the Decay of the Art of Lying, by Mark Twain: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2572/pg2572.html http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2572/pg2572.html
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
RobertoG 10y ago
What I find fascinating is that it seems that it's (maybe I'm wrong) a very recent development in child psychology, but it's used against us by the marketing departments many times every day.
bsder 10y ago
Anytime someone does "choice framing" (or other "persuasion techniques") on me, they have automatically placed themselves on thin ice. Most of the time, I will ignore it because it isn't important enough for me. If I know you are a "sales/marketing" type, I may simply ignore this part of your personality because I realize you can't turn it off. If I think it's important, I will call you out on it. I will inform you quite strongly that I will come to my own conclusions after I have considered my options. If you want my support, present me with your evidence and arguments. If this is a business power play, I'm going to call one or two other people over who will want the choice to go different directions, sit back, and watch everything melt down into a gigantic argument. Don't manipulate people around you to do things they don't want to do. Align your goals and tasks so that people want to do the thing you want them to do. Otherwise, you'll get a reputation for "playing poker" all them time, and then people will start avoiding you. Or worse, they'll start sending someone like me over to deal with you. And they'll laugh as you get increasingly frustrated that you are interacting with someone you can't manipulate. (Yes, I'm speaking from both personal and business experience).
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> It seems like it might be useful for managing employees / colleagues too. Please don't treat your colleagues/employees like a fucking child.

by biofox 10y ago

DanBC 10y ago

The other important thing is to recognise that children can't plan. If you're in a hot room and ask a child to put some warm clothing on they're not going to be able to plan for the cold weather outside, and they'll reject the clothing because they're warm. At that point you can turn it into a huge thing, or you can just take the coat with you until you get outside and they get cold. At which point you let them put it on. And if they still don't want it, well, most children aren't going to let themselves get hypothermic.

sopooneo 10y ago

Or populations.

SerLava 10y ago
Electorates. I'm being rather edgy.

jessriedel 10y ago

I don't understand how people think this is honest. You're clearly using your cognitive advantage (or in the case of a boss, usually an organizational info advantage) to trick the other person. I remember as I grew up noticing when adults were doing this, and I resented them for it. Why would I want my kids to feel that way about me?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
pappyo 10y ago
Any cognitive advantage that is abused will be seen as manipulative, absolutely. The way to make "the illusion of choice" work is to be selective about it. You start out by giving the 4 year old the illusion of choice (the jacket or the sweater), but what you're really doing is coaching the child to make appropriate decisions. After a few times, you won't have to give the child the choice anymore, because they will know the parameters of the choices for the challenge facing them. You could simply say "let's get ready to go out." Same thing with a boss. (S)he can use this cognitive tool to coach good decisions. People like choice and they like being right. Using this method allows for both.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  You're justifying it as being in the child's (or employee's) interest, but you're not actually denying the transgression. Lying becomes less worse when you lie for someone else's benefit but (1) that doesn't make it not lying, (2) the other person can still rightfully resent it, (3) you generally shouldn't trust yourself to only lie in another's interest. Regarding the last one: I often see normal, reasonably good parents lie to their children just to get relief, and I'm sure they can justify it to themselves as in the child's interest, but it's really just self-serving. (You can replace "lie" with "white lie", "trick", or whatever euphemism you want for this mild, but real, transgression.) I think one good check on this is whether the child would be OK with it after-the-fact, assuming some hypothetical wisdom and hindsight (like becoming an adult). If they aren't OK with it, then you probably shouldn't do it. And I'm telling you right now: as an adult, I don't like the fact that adults did this to me when I was a child.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    On that note: On the Decay of the Art of Lying, by Mark Twain: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2572/pg2572.html http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2572/pg2572.html

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

RobertoG 10y ago

What I find fascinating is that it seems that it's (maybe I'm wrong) a very recent development in child psychology, but it's used against us by the marketing departments many times every day.

bsder 10y ago

Anytime someone does "choice framing" (or other "persuasion techniques") on me, they have automatically placed themselves on thin ice. Most of the time, I will ignore it because it isn't important enough for me. If I know you are a "sales/marketing" type, I may simply ignore this part of your personality because I realize you can't turn it off. If I think it's important, I will call you out on it. I will inform you quite strongly that I will come to my own conclusions after I have considered my options. If you want my support, present me with your evidence and arguments. If this is a business power play, I'm going to call one or two other people over who will want the choice to go different directions, sit back, and watch everything melt down into a gigantic argument. Don't manipulate people around you to do things they don't want to do. Align your goals and tasks so that people want to do the thing you want them to do. Otherwise, you'll get a reputation for "playing poker" all them time, and then people will start avoiding you. Or worse, they'll start sending someone like me over to deal with you. And they'll laugh as you get increasingly frustrated that you are interacting with someone you can't manipulate. (Yes, I'm speaking from both personal and business experience).

pavel_lishin 10y ago

> It seems like it might be useful for managing employees / colleagues too. Please don't treat your colleagues/employees like a fucking child.