4 ms·

Surely you are not suggesting that US laws have any bearing outside of it, correct?

by sklivvz1971 10y ago

bluejekyll 10y ago
I think what is trying to be said is that it's in accordance with the US' own laws, not that those laws somehow cause non-US citizens or land to fall under US jurisdiction. The only thing that prevents the US from spying on non-US citizens are treaties, and those seem to often be ignored.
edblarney 10y ago
I'm not saying that, I'm just referring to the comment about 'misrepresentation' in the headline. As for the FBI hacking outside their borders ... Obviously, this is immediately problematic, no doubt. But we live in a new, globalized world, and it includes not just social issues and business, but law enforcement. A lot of pernicious crimes like sex-trafficking and child pornography etc. are very international in nature. Ideally, we'd want authorities to work with one another, which is obviously the case in many ways ... but ... it's not always so easy. A lot of these regimes are totally corrupt, inefficient, have other priorities, or are politicized. Remember that we are trying to achieve actual justice - and the rules are there to enable that - not the other way around. I'm not exactly comfortable with what the FBI might be doing - that said, it depends a lot on what they are actually doing. If the FBI hacks into the computers of some sex-traffickers in Burma, Ukraine, Belarus and is able to catch them ... then all the power to them. I think it's probably for the greater good, even if it does bend some rules. Now if they start to go after political dissidents, and journalists, well, we have a problem :).
elif 10y ago
Are you suggesting that, for instance, the spooks that we now know spied on Merkel will be prosecuted on German soil? I'm not saying it's impossible, it would just be the first I'm hearing of it.
nkw 10y ago
FWIW, right or wrong the United States takes the position that a wide variety of its laws apply outside of the territorial boundaries of the United Sates.[1] (And in practice their interpretation is much broader than the Wikipedia article suggests.) How motivated they are to enforce such laws outside of the United States, however varies from case to case. e.g. Edward Snowden, Marc Rich[2], however cf. Manuel Noriega[3], Ahmed Abu Khattala[4] or generally[5] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdiction#Federal_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdiction#... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega [4] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-captured-benghazi-suspect-in-secret-raid/2014/06/17/7ef8746e-f5cf-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-ca... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
- Taniwha 10y ago
  It's one thing to say that laws in the US apply to what US residents do outside the US, it's quite another to pretend that a US law overrides laws in sovereign nations. Of course they can't, FBI Hackers are likely liable to arrest and/or extradition if caught, while it's possible that the US might abrogate its extradition treaties in this case, suspects may find themselves arrested by 3rd countries the moment the leave US borders, or, depending on the country even tried in absentia
fulldecent 10y ago
See the PROTECT act.
xiaoma 10y ago
Try telling that to the IRS. Just any international bank just about anywhere in the world with any US citizens as customers can tell you all about it.

Surely you are not suggesting that US laws have any bearing outside of it, correct?

I think what is trying to be said is that it's in accordance with the US' own laws, not that those laws somehow cause non-US citizens or land to fall under US jurisdiction. The only thing that prevents the US from spying on non-US citizens are treaties, and those seem to often be ignored.

edblarney 10y ago

I'm not saying that, I'm just referring to the comment about 'misrepresentation' in the headline. As for the FBI hacking outside their borders ... Obviously, this is immediately problematic, no doubt. But we live in a new, globalized world, and it includes not just social issues and business, but law enforcement. A lot of pernicious crimes like sex-trafficking and child pornography etc. are very international in nature. Ideally, we'd want authorities to work with one another, which is obviously the case in many ways ... but ... it's not always so easy. A lot of these regimes are totally corrupt, inefficient, have other priorities, or are politicized. Remember that we are trying to achieve actual justice - and the rules are there to enable that - not the other way around. I'm not exactly comfortable with what the FBI might be doing - that said, it depends a lot on what they are actually doing. If the FBI hacks into the computers of some sex-traffickers in Burma, Ukraine, Belarus and is able to catch them ... then all the power to them. I think it's probably for the greater good, even if it does bend some rules. Now if they start to go after political dissidents, and journalists, well, we have a problem :).

elif 10y ago

Are you suggesting that, for instance, the spooks that we now know spied on Merkel will be prosecuted on German soil? I'm not saying it's impossible, it would just be the first I'm hearing of it.

nkw 10y ago

FWIW, right or wrong the United States takes the position that a wide variety of its laws apply outside of the territorial boundaries of the United Sates.[1] (And in practice their interpretation is much broader than the Wikipedia article suggests.) How motivated they are to enforce such laws outside of the United States, however varies from case to case. e.g. Edward Snowden, Marc Rich[2], however cf. Manuel Noriega[3], Ahmed Abu Khattala[4] or generally[5] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdiction#Federal_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdiction#... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega [4] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-captured-benghazi-suspect-in-secret-raid/2014/06/17/7ef8746e-f5cf-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-ca... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

Taniwha 10y ago
It's one thing to say that laws in the US apply to what US residents do outside the US, it's quite another to pretend that a US law overrides laws in sovereign nations. Of course they can't, FBI Hackers are likely liable to arrest and/or extradition if caught, while it's possible that the US might abrogate its extradition treaties in this case, suspects may find themselves arrested by 3rd countries the moment the leave US borders, or, depending on the country even tried in absentia

fulldecent 10y ago

See the PROTECT act.

xiaoma 10y ago

Try telling that to the IRS. Just any international bank just about anywhere in the world with any US citizens as customers can tell you all about it.