4 ms·

Not really. They are never added, subtracted, multiplied, or divided. They are never compared for greater-than or less-than. Possibly they are compared for equa

by fnj 10y ago

Not really. They are never added, subtracted, multiplied, or divided. They are never compared for greater-than or less-than. Possibly they are compared for equality. About the only mathematical operations I can think of which are ever done to them are bitwise-anding, bitwise-inclusive-oring, and testing for zero (and, as mentioned, equality).

eropple 10y ago
Yes, really. I mean, I add to IP addresses regularly. How else do you enumerate a subnet (like, what do you think nmap does)? How else do you place, say, twelve machines at 172.17.0.120 through .131? If you're doing string concatenation, you are screwing up. Perhaps it's not enough of a screwup to impact what you do--but definitely wrong enough to impact what I do unless I were to do a lot of extra work in modeling an IP address just for the sake of somebody else's spherical cow of uniform density. (And I do mean work I'd have to do--the lack of a decent IP addressing library on the JVM is a recurring pain in my ass, but since they're just integers...) If you have internalized an IP address as a dotted set of octets expressed in ASCII digits, that's a problem of comprehension. When you don't, it's pretty natural to just use this stuff like any other integer.
- baq 10y ago
  You're not adding addresses together, that doesn't make sense. You're adding ints to addresses, it's a completely different property, even if the representation happens to fit into the same amount of bits. Nothing more than a convenient coincidence.
  - eropple 10y ago
    You're right, I'm not adding addresses together. If you read my post, I say I'm adding to addresses, which you do to--now hold onto your hat--find the next one in sequence. And that, quite obviously, works because they are integers and map to an address space that matches the complete space, from 0x00000000 to 0xFFFFFFFF (and the equivalent 128-bit space for IPv6) of their bit length. It's not "a convenient coincidence". It's the definition of the thing in question. It's like saying a pointer to RAM isn't an integer. Of course it is, and you add to them every time you de-reference an array in C. That it has additional semantic meaning doesn't mean it stops being a integer. The pedantry you're peddling doesn't fly.
    - FreeFull 10y ago
      I think what baq is saying is that IP addresses are torsors http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/torsors.html http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/torsors.html . It makes sense to give them a type where you can't add two IP addresses to each other (but you can still subtract to get an integer, and add integers).
      - eropple 10y ago
        Sure, fine, but it'll still be an i128 somewhere, yeah? Like, you can put whatever abstraction you want on it, I still need to directly poke those bits and treat it in all ways as fundamentally the same thing as an integer, defined in those terms in order to use integral operations upon them, at the levels that somebody who's worrying about them has to care about. (Also, look at halomru's post for reasons one might intentionally add and subtract addresses from one another in the first place, which kind of holes this argument.) That is a cool link though, I'm gonna give it a deeper read.
halomru 10y ago
>They are never compared for greater-than or less-than. if ip >= IP(10.34.12.3) && ip <= IP(10.34.12.9) //is one of our database servers > They are never added, subtracted, if abs(atk1.ip - atk2.ip) < 16 //same source likely, modify threshold Netmask are useful, but sometimes doing regular math is a better fit for your problem. Adding an integer to an IP, subtracting IPs or comparing IPs all yield meaningful results.
hroi 10y ago
What is your point? u32/u128 are not mathematical integers. They are actually bit strings, just like IP addresses and unlike mathematical integers.
- Ericson2314 10y ago
  They are mathematical cyclic groups!

by fnj 10y ago

eropple 10y ago

Yes, really. I mean, I add to IP addresses regularly. How else do you enumerate a subnet (like, what do you think nmap does)? How else do you place, say, twelve machines at 172.17.0.120 through .131? If you're doing string concatenation, you are screwing up. Perhaps it's not enough of a screwup to impact what you do--but definitely wrong enough to impact what I do unless I were to do a lot of extra work in modeling an IP address just for the sake of somebody else's spherical cow of uniform density. (And I do mean work I'd have to do--the lack of a decent IP addressing library on the JVM is a recurring pain in my ass, but since they're just integers...) If you have internalized an IP address as a dotted set of octets expressed in ASCII digits, that's a problem of comprehension. When you don't, it's pretty natural to just use this stuff like any other integer.

baq 10y ago
You're not adding addresses together, that doesn't make sense. You're adding ints to addresses, it's a completely different property, even if the representation happens to fit into the same amount of bits. Nothing more than a convenient coincidence.
- eropple 10y ago
  You're right, I'm not adding addresses together. If you read my post, I say I'm adding to addresses, which you do to--now hold onto your hat--find the next one in sequence. And that, quite obviously, works because they are integers and map to an address space that matches the complete space, from 0x00000000 to 0xFFFFFFFF (and the equivalent 128-bit space for IPv6) of their bit length. It's not "a convenient coincidence". It's the definition of the thing in question. It's like saying a pointer to RAM isn't an integer. Of course it is, and you add to them every time you de-reference an array in C. That it has additional semantic meaning doesn't mean it stops being a integer. The pedantry you're peddling doesn't fly.
  - FreeFull 10y ago
    I think what baq is saying is that IP addresses are torsors http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/torsors.html http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/torsors.html . It makes sense to give them a type where you can't add two IP addresses to each other (but you can still subtract to get an integer, and add integers).
    - eropple 10y ago
      Sure, fine, but it'll still be an i128 somewhere, yeah? Like, you can put whatever abstraction you want on it, I still need to directly poke those bits and treat it in all ways as fundamentally the same thing as an integer, defined in those terms in order to use integral operations upon them, at the levels that somebody who's worrying about them has to care about. (Also, look at halomru's post for reasons one might intentionally add and subtract addresses from one another in the first place, which kind of holes this argument.) That is a cool link though, I'm gonna give it a deeper read.

halomru 10y ago

>They are never compared for greater-than or less-than. if ip >= IP(10.34.12.3) && ip <= IP(10.34.12.9) //is one of our database servers > They are never added, subtracted, if abs(atk1.ip - atk2.ip) < 16 //same source likely, modify threshold Netmask are useful, but sometimes doing regular math is a better fit for your problem. Adding an integer to an IP, subtracting IPs or comparing IPs all yield meaningful results.

hroi 10y ago

What is your point? u32/u128 are not mathematical integers. They are actually bit strings, just like IP addresses and unlike mathematical integers.

Ericson2314 10y ago
They are mathematical cyclic groups!