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To give this guy some backup: this happens here in The Netherlands as well. Gay couples could feel safe in the public space at the end of last century. Now the

To give this guy some backup: this happens here in The Netherlands as well. Gay couples could feel safe in the public space at the end of last century. Now they are harassed, sometimes even to the point they decide to leave their neighbourhoods. It is not safe anymore to hold hands or kiss for gay couples in public spaces in Amsterdam. Young women without their hair covered are considered fair game by muslim youth and are less safe than before. Some students are actually starting to cover their hair in the evening to prevent getting harassed. Amsterdam past a 'law' last week to try to counter this harassment but it has no teeth, will be unenforceable. Not talking about problems do not make them go away.

the-dude 10y ago
BTW, I upvoted and vouched the OP. To reiterate, stiffling speech is not helping. It is a crude comment for sure. But still.
- icebraining 10y ago
  But it's not just crude; it's both ignorant (there are millions of Muslims in the EU already, not "letting them in" is not a solution) and disgusting in its support for the political groups that damaged Europe at a level much greater than any radical Muslims could ever hope to. It's comments like those that derail reasonable conversations and make people like me want to stay the fuck away.
  - the-dude 10y ago
    I have reread his comment now repeatedly and let us take it apart. 1. "Why let them in in the first place? Why this obsession western Europe has with self destruction?" Although loaded, these are questions. Maybe we should be able to answer these to this angry citizen. Apparently we failed. 2. "I'm soooooo looking forward to the rise of the far right" So here he is suggesting his solution. Well, that is just his opinion man. 3. "of all the news, of my girlfriend telling me how she doesn't feel secure walking alone in the city, I'm just so fucking tired of all of this, and over time it's just going to get worse." And here he is describing how he feels and how it affects him.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      I don't disagree with you; I'd like an answer too. But our collective failure to come up with one doesn't justify every reaction. In a very real way, supporting the far-right is supporting terrorists[1]. And if we can excuse that, how can we blame extremist Muslims for supporting their own version? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#Europe
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      >"I'm soooooo looking forward to the rise of the far right" Millions of people have died under far-right regimes. Cheering them on is not funny and it's not an ordinary opinion. It is cheering for an ideology that has murdered millions of people within living memory.
      - izirik 10y ago
        More people died under far-left regimes. But somehow cheering them is funny and cool, especially in the SV tech community. Just take a look on recent HN comments on Castro or Venezuela. Everyone criticizing these far-left regimes or ideologies were getting downvoted to hell and flagged. I am pretty sure that OP would prefer some more centered political forces to solve the problem. But so far any other forces do not want even to admit its existence.
        icebraining 10y ago
        Everyone criticizing these far-left regimes or ideologies were getting downvoted to hell and flagged. Not only is that irrelevant in this discussion, as it's downright false. Many people were calling Castro evil and getting upvoted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13043663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13043663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13043292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13043292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13044334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13044334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042486 There are many more, I got tired after scrolling about 30% of the thread.
  - piotrjurkiewicz 10y ago
    > (there are millions of Muslims in the EU already, not "letting them in" is not a solution) 50 years ago: "We will let in just couple of thousands, such a small amount cannot induce any problems." Now: "Muslims started generating problems, but there are so many of them, that not "letting them in" is not a solution anymore. So we must keep letting them in..."
    - icebraining 10y ago
      Stop distorting my words. I never said we must let anyone in.
      - AckSyn 10y ago
        you said, and I quote: > (there are millions of Muslims in the EU already, not "letting them in" is not a solution)
        icebraining 10y ago
        Yes. Not letting them in is not a solution to the problem. It might still be something we should do, but it won't fix what's worrying vuanotinz.
      - izirik 10y ago
        > I never said we must let anyone in. Not stopping anyone means letting anyone in.
        icebraining 10y ago
        I didn't say it shouldn't be stopped. I said it's not a solution to the problem.
    - dang 10y ago
      We've banned your account for repeatedly ignoring our requests to stop using HN for political battle, and for other apparent abuses, such as employing multiple accounts in the same thread.
icebraining 10y ago
The problem is that racist shitheads poison the well. There's absolutely a need to have frank discussions on integration (including the failures by state organizations, civil society and yes, immigrants and descendants themselves), immigration policies, social support (which is more than how much money should be allocated), etc, but as soon as you start such a conversation, there's a good chance that one of those trouser stains will pop up and "agree" with you, making you look like one of them.
- the-dude 10y ago
  He, thanks for the insightful comment. I am not afraid. I am not sure how much I agree with your position. My late father taught me something which I still enjoy to this day, almost weekly. He was a civil servant. 'People who feel they are not listened to will get angry.' So first you do listen to a citizen(customer), then you defend your position. I wish YC would unflag the OP.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    The comment was flagged because of its tone and the frailty of its reasoning. It's not impossible to write a survivable comment expressing (what I presume to be) the same kernel of thought that comment did, but to do so requires more careful writing and more clarity of thought than that comment had. Recklessly inflammatory comments don't survive on HN, and that's a good thing.
throwawayanyway 10y ago
The problem with gp mindset is that extremisms grow stronger when countered with extremisms, you can see and profit from this looking from either side.

the-dude 10y ago

BTW, I upvoted and vouched the OP. To reiterate, stiffling speech is not helping. It is a crude comment for sure. But still.

icebraining 10y ago
But it's not just crude; it's both ignorant (there are millions of Muslims in the EU already, not "letting them in" is not a solution) and disgusting in its support for the political groups that damaged Europe at a level much greater than any radical Muslims could ever hope to. It's comments like those that derail reasonable conversations and make people like me want to stay the fuck away.
- the-dude 10y ago
  I have reread his comment now repeatedly and let us take it apart. 1. "Why let them in in the first place? Why this obsession western Europe has with self destruction?" Although loaded, these are questions. Maybe we should be able to answer these to this angry citizen. Apparently we failed. 2. "I'm soooooo looking forward to the rise of the far right" So here he is suggesting his solution. Well, that is just his opinion man. 3. "of all the news, of my girlfriend telling me how she doesn't feel secure walking alone in the city, I'm just so fucking tired of all of this, and over time it's just going to get worse." And here he is describing how he feels and how it affects him.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    I don't disagree with you; I'd like an answer too. But our collective failure to come up with one doesn't justify every reaction. In a very real way, supporting the far-right is supporting terrorists[1]. And if we can excuse that, how can we blame extremist Muslims for supporting their own version? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#Europe
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >"I'm soooooo looking forward to the rise of the far right" Millions of people have died under far-right regimes. Cheering them on is not funny and it's not an ordinary opinion. It is cheering for an ideology that has murdered millions of people within living memory.
    - izirik 10y ago
      More people died under far-left regimes. But somehow cheering them is funny and cool, especially in the SV tech community. Just take a look on recent HN comments on Castro or Venezuela. Everyone criticizing these far-left regimes or ideologies were getting downvoted to hell and flagged. I am pretty sure that OP would prefer some more centered political forces to solve the problem. But so far any other forces do not want even to admit its existence.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        Everyone criticizing these far-left regimes or ideologies were getting downvoted to hell and flagged. Not only is that irrelevant in this discussion, as it's downright false. Many people were calling Castro evil and getting upvoted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13043663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13043663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13043292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13043292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13044334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13044334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13042486 There are many more, I got tired after scrolling about 30% of the thread.
- piotrjurkiewicz 10y ago
  > (there are millions of Muslims in the EU already, not "letting them in" is not a solution) 50 years ago: "We will let in just couple of thousands, such a small amount cannot induce any problems." Now: "Muslims started generating problems, but there are so many of them, that not "letting them in" is not a solution anymore. So we must keep letting them in..."
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Stop distorting my words. I never said we must let anyone in.
    - AckSyn 10y ago
      you said, and I quote: > (there are millions of Muslims in the EU already, not "letting them in" is not a solution)
      - icebraining 10y ago
        Yes. Not letting them in is not a solution to the problem. It might still be something we should do, but it won't fix what's worrying vuanotinz.
    - izirik 10y ago
      > I never said we must let anyone in. Not stopping anyone means letting anyone in.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        I didn't say it shouldn't be stopped. I said it's not a solution to the problem.
  - dang 10y ago
    We've banned your account for repeatedly ignoring our requests to stop using HN for political battle, and for other apparent abuses, such as employing multiple accounts in the same thread.

icebraining 10y ago

The problem is that racist shitheads poison the well. There's absolutely a need to have frank discussions on integration (including the failures by state organizations, civil society and yes, immigrants and descendants themselves), immigration policies, social support (which is more than how much money should be allocated), etc, but as soon as you start such a conversation, there's a good chance that one of those trouser stains will pop up and "agree" with you, making you look like one of them.

the-dude 10y ago
He, thanks for the insightful comment. I am not afraid. I am not sure how much I agree with your position. My late father taught me something which I still enjoy to this day, almost weekly. He was a civil servant. 'People who feel they are not listened to will get angry.' So first you do listen to a citizen(customer), then you defend your position. I wish YC would unflag the OP.
- tptacek 10y ago
  The comment was flagged because of its tone and the frailty of its reasoning. It's not impossible to write a survivable comment expressing (what I presume to be) the same kernel of thought that comment did, but to do so requires more careful writing and more clarity of thought than that comment had. Recklessly inflammatory comments don't survive on HN, and that's a good thing.

throwawayanyway 10y ago

The problem with gp mindset is that extremisms grow stronger when countered with extremisms, you can see and profit from this looking from either side.