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As a person with a disability myself (legally blind), I have a couple of concerns with this idea. First, the category of people with disabilities is quite broa

As a person with a disability myself (legally blind), I have a couple of concerns with this idea. First, the category of people with disabilities is quite broad. There are not only different categories of disability, but also a broad spectrum of severity for any given disability. Why would an employer post to a job board for people with disabilities in general, except out of a misguided sense of charity, or perhaps to meet some kind of quota? And that brings me to the bigger concern: Why do people with disabilities need a special job board just for us anyway? Surely that is a failure to fully integrate us into mainstream society, which I think is ultimately the best thing for everyone. By the way, though I hate the clunkiness of terminology like "people with disabilities", I think it's justified in this case. For me, the word "disabled", particularly in the context of employment, has the connotation of being unable to be productive. Some people's disabilities are severe enough that that's true of them, but that's not all of us, not by a long shot. Maybe I'm being over-sensitive about that, but I'm just telling you how I see it, for what it's worth.

extra88 10y ago
Do you use a screenreader? I was looking at the Find Jobs page, which appears to trigger the search on any "on blur" event in the form, and thinking that this is a good case for using ARIA live regions [0]. I was also thinking that it would be better if it took a progressive enhancement approach and had a working Submit button to POST the form when JavaScript is not running but that's another matter. [0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA/ARIA_Live_Regions https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/A...
benhoyt 10y ago
Interesting perspective on the terms (in your last paragraph). I've long thought it's odd how this language has changed over the years. A long time ago a disabled person might have been called "retarded" -- that's probably the most offensive term of all now, but the literal meaning of the word itself is least offensive, simply meaning "slowed down". Then came "handicapped", which isn't used much anymore, but literally just means having some kind of restriction. Now we are much more enlightened and say "disabled" -- it's the least offensive term now, but if you take it literally that word is quite horrible, meaning "not working" or "incapacitated" or "turned off" or "unable to be used", as in "the bomb squad disabled the bomb". Why did we settle on a word that means "not working" for someone who has a handicap?
- escapologybb 10y ago
  Couldn't agree more, and don't even get me started on "differently abled".Facepalm It's a weird one and I really do think a lot of the time it depends on who's saying it and in what context, I think when there is a large power imbalance than the use of the word disabled can be really horrible but between peers, not so much. Personally I prefer being called Stuart, possibly "you know, you've met him before, he's the one in the wheelchair", that sort of thing. I don't think there is one right answer because you obviously can't please everyone all the time, but I do think that large institutions and those with power have to be very careful about how they phrase things because you will come off as dismissive if you're not careful. Even if you don't need to be.
- mwcampbell 10y ago
  For me, the word "disabled" brings to mind the novel _Ender's Game_, particularly the scenes in the battle room where that word describes the kids who have been completely paralyzed for the remainder of the battle and thus can't do anything. Or, in a UI toolkit, the word "disabled" refers to a widget that can't be used in the current context and, typically, is grayed out on screen.
- paulryanrogers 10y ago
  Maybe since the characteristic being called out is related to ability? Of course there is a spectrum, and at some point nearly everyone is unable to do common tasks we usually take for granted. I'm amazed how quickly I forget after recovering from an injury or finding a workaround to a physical limitation.
- trvlngwlbry 10y ago
  I read GP's last paragraph as distinguishing between the use of "disabled people" vs. "people with disabilities," rather than between the use of "disabled" (or words with the same root) vs. other words. My company did some work for an organization that supported people with disabilities in the workforce. The client stressed the importance of the distinction between using "people with disabilities" as opposed to "disabled people," with the former being much preferred because - due to its structure - it puts the focus (i.e. the first word) on "people" rather than "disabled/disability".
escapologybb 10y ago
>By the way, though I hate the clunkiness of terminology like "people with disabilities", I think it's justified in this case. For me, the word "disabled", particularly in the context of employment, has the connotation of being unable to be productive. Some people's disabilities are severe enough that that's true of them, but that's not all of us, not by a long shot. Maybe I'm being over-sensitive about that, but I'm just telling you how I see it, for what it's worth. *This is not aimed at the OP I'm just going to go off on a tangent with you here 100%! I hate it when people say that I'm "wheelchair-bound" and I'm TOTALLY oversensitive to it, and I'm probably oversensitive to because the whole world is aggressively designed to make my life difficult. Not intentionally, there (probably) isn't some anti-disabled cabal going around making pavements uneven but when you live in a world that is hostile to you it's very easy to get sensitive to the language people use. Words have meanings. And I don't really care, I think we should band together and bann the word disabled. I think we should disable it. By the way, the Germans have a great saying, they use "wheelchair driver". Now that I like.
- paulryanrogers 10y ago
  Suddenly the local city rules about sidewalk quality doesn't seem so bad. Thanks for sharing.
daenney 10y ago
> Why would an employer post to a job board for people with disabilities in general, except out of a misguided sense of charity, or perhaps to meet some kind of quota? One of my employers purposefully went and hired a blind developer. Not because they felt charitable or because they had to fill some quota but because we needed to improve the accessibility of our web apps. But it took us nearly half a year just to find someone and then we still needed them to get through interviews. The process took over a year. Having that developer on the team proved tremendously effective in improving the accessibility for everyone, not just the vision impaired. Depending on what you do having someone on the team that actively works on this and understands these issues at a much deeper level can bring enormous benefit. It also ensured this wasn't a one off improvement. By continuously being involved they sensitised other developers to these issues.
- escapologybb 10y ago
  > One of my employers purposefully went and hired a blind developer. That was really great of them to hire a blind developer, what makes me mildly furious is that disabled in the tech world means blind or deaf, there isn't any room for people with extreme motor skill difficulties. A few people have suggested tools in this thread and they have all been for blind people and that is what "accessibility" has come to mean the technology space at the moment. Blind people definitely need to be catered to don't get me wrong, but how do you use the Internet if you can't use your arms? It just doesn't come up in web development courses, most software products don't think about it at all, we really are the redheaded stepchildren the accessibility world. It's only Apple in the past couple of years who came out with their suite of tools to allow quadriplegics and people with extreme motor difficulties to use iOS that have really thought about it, and they are really amazing. Full disclosure I helped beta test a couple of versions of iOS accessibility stuff, but there isn't another company in the world where you could take a laptop or phone out-of-the-box and within 5 minutes be up and running as a person with quadriplegia. And believe me I've looked! So developers, spare a thought for those of us who had to cobble together some Frankenstein approach to using the Internet just because we cannot use our hands! :-)
  - extra88 10y ago
ovibos 10y ago
Why does "disabled" have the connotation of being unable to be productive, and the phrase "people with disabilities" not? Surely, if we use the phrase "people with disabilities" as we would have used "disabled", it will gain similar connotations, no? Sorry if i come off as confrontational, I'm legitimately curious
- escapologybb 10y ago
  I'm going to assume good faith and, in my very humble opinion, you are absolutely correct. If it's got the word disabled in it it has the same connotations. You. Are. Broken. Refer to all disabled people by their chosen name if you know it, otherwise ask them and then work around any logistical problems as they come up and as they are referred to you by the disabled person. Do not assume anything and do not push a wheelchair without asking and/or being asked. Even if a disabled person is lying on the ground, they will ask if they need help. Rules to live by able-bodied people, rules to live by!
- grzm 10y ago
  I believe the preference is due to "disabled person" has the connotation of "a person who is disabled", where "disabled" is an essential property of the person, while "person with disabilities" has the connotation where the disability is not essential to the person's definition: it's just one aspect of the person.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
costcopizza 10y ago
Nope, it is justified. People-first language is a subtle, but psychologically affecting issue. I.e. Saying "teenagers with Down syndrome" instead of "Down syndrome teenagers" You have a disability, you aren't defined by it. Source: Work for a nonprofit focused on serving kids and adults with various intellectual and developmental disabilities.
- mwcampbell 10y ago
  As I participate in this thread and think more about this, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, saying "disabled" instead of "with a disability" carries the implication that the disability makes you completely unable to do anything useful, like a disabled widget in a UI toolkit. In our language, the best way to avoid that implication, when talking about disabilities in general, is to say "with a disability" rather than "disabled". But when talking about a specific disability, language like "people who are blind", instead of "blind people", is just too damn clunky, without accomplishing anything, at least in my mind. I know plenty of blind people, and none of us use people-first language to refer to ourselves or each other.
  - costcopizza 10y ago
    Interesting that you mention blindness. The National Federation of the Blind first condemned people-first language in 1993. It really does depend on the group, however in my area of intellectual and developmental disabilities (IDD) there is a push for it.
bryanrasmussen 10y ago
how was the site usability wise for you? Looking through the code I thought it would be irritating or difficult to search? Actually when I saw it I thought it might be useful for a project of mine where I will need to hire people to do accessibility testing, but I suppose that is about the only edge case I can think of that makes a disability job board useful. (note that by accessibility testing I would also like to test dyslexic usage, color blindness, and other disabilities rather than just blindness [ which in my experience is the disability most often tested for and then calling it a day])

extra88 10y ago

Do you use a screenreader? I was looking at the Find Jobs page, which appears to trigger the search on any "on blur" event in the form, and thinking that this is a good case for using ARIA live regions [0]. I was also thinking that it would be better if it took a progressive enhancement approach and had a working Submit button to POST the form when JavaScript is not running but that's another matter. [0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/ARIA/ARIA_Live_Regions https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/A...

benhoyt 10y ago

Interesting perspective on the terms (in your last paragraph). I've long thought it's odd how this language has changed over the years. A long time ago a disabled person might have been called "retarded" -- that's probably the most offensive term of all now, but the literal meaning of the word itself is least offensive, simply meaning "slowed down". Then came "handicapped", which isn't used much anymore, but literally just means having some kind of restriction. Now we are much more enlightened and say "disabled" -- it's the least offensive term now, but if you take it literally that word is quite horrible, meaning "not working" or "incapacitated" or "turned off" or "unable to be used", as in "the bomb squad disabled the bomb". Why did we settle on a word that means "not working" for someone who has a handicap?

escapologybb 10y ago
Couldn't agree more, and don't even get me started on "differently abled".Facepalm It's a weird one and I really do think a lot of the time it depends on who's saying it and in what context, I think when there is a large power imbalance than the use of the word disabled can be really horrible but between peers, not so much. Personally I prefer being called Stuart, possibly "you know, you've met him before, he's the one in the wheelchair", that sort of thing. I don't think there is one right answer because you obviously can't please everyone all the time, but I do think that large institutions and those with power have to be very careful about how they phrase things because you will come off as dismissive if you're not careful. Even if you don't need to be.
mwcampbell 10y ago
For me, the word "disabled" brings to mind the novel _Ender's Game_, particularly the scenes in the battle room where that word describes the kids who have been completely paralyzed for the remainder of the battle and thus can't do anything. Or, in a UI toolkit, the word "disabled" refers to a widget that can't be used in the current context and, typically, is grayed out on screen.
paulryanrogers 10y ago
Maybe since the characteristic being called out is related to ability? Of course there is a spectrum, and at some point nearly everyone is unable to do common tasks we usually take for granted. I'm amazed how quickly I forget after recovering from an injury or finding a workaround to a physical limitation.
trvlngwlbry 10y ago
I read GP's last paragraph as distinguishing between the use of "disabled people" vs. "people with disabilities," rather than between the use of "disabled" (or words with the same root) vs. other words. My company did some work for an organization that supported people with disabilities in the workforce. The client stressed the importance of the distinction between using "people with disabilities" as opposed to "disabled people," with the former being much preferred because - due to its structure - it puts the focus (i.e. the first word) on "people" rather than "disabled/disability".

escapologybb 10y ago

>By the way, though I hate the clunkiness of terminology like "people with disabilities", I think it's justified in this case. For me, the word "disabled", particularly in the context of employment, has the connotation of being unable to be productive. Some people's disabilities are severe enough that that's true of them, but that's not all of us, not by a long shot. Maybe I'm being over-sensitive about that, but I'm just telling you how I see it, for what it's worth. *This is not aimed at the OP I'm just going to go off on a tangent with you here 100%! I hate it when people say that I'm "wheelchair-bound" and I'm TOTALLY oversensitive to it, and I'm probably oversensitive to because the whole world is aggressively designed to make my life difficult. Not intentionally, there (probably) isn't some anti-disabled cabal going around making pavements uneven but when you live in a world that is hostile to you it's very easy to get sensitive to the language people use. Words have meanings. And I don't really care, I think we should band together and bann the word disabled. I think we should disable it. By the way, the Germans have a great saying, they use "wheelchair driver". Now that I like.

paulryanrogers 10y ago
Suddenly the local city rules about sidewalk quality doesn't seem so bad. Thanks for sharing.

daenney 10y ago

> Why would an employer post to a job board for people with disabilities in general, except out of a misguided sense of charity, or perhaps to meet some kind of quota? One of my employers purposefully went and hired a blind developer. Not because they felt charitable or because they had to fill some quota but because we needed to improve the accessibility of our web apps. But it took us nearly half a year just to find someone and then we still needed them to get through interviews. The process took over a year. Having that developer on the team proved tremendously effective in improving the accessibility for everyone, not just the vision impaired. Depending on what you do having someone on the team that actively works on this and understands these issues at a much deeper level can bring enormous benefit. It also ensured this wasn't a one off improvement. By continuously being involved they sensitised other developers to these issues.

escapologybb 10y ago
> One of my employers purposefully went and hired a blind developer. That was really great of them to hire a blind developer, what makes me mildly furious is that disabled in the tech world means blind or deaf, there isn't any room for people with extreme motor skill difficulties. A few people have suggested tools in this thread and they have all been for blind people and that is what "accessibility" has come to mean the technology space at the moment. Blind people definitely need to be catered to don't get me wrong, but how do you use the Internet if you can't use your arms? It just doesn't come up in web development courses, most software products don't think about it at all, we really are the redheaded stepchildren the accessibility world. It's only Apple in the past couple of years who came out with their suite of tools to allow quadriplegics and people with extreme motor difficulties to use iOS that have really thought about it, and they are really amazing. Full disclosure I helped beta test a couple of versions of iOS accessibility stuff, but there isn't another company in the world where you could take a laptop or phone out-of-the-box and within 5 minutes be up and running as a person with quadriplegia. And believe me I've looked! So developers, spare a thought for those of us who had to cobble together some Frankenstein approach to using the Internet just because we cannot use our hands! :-)
- extra88 10y ago

ovibos 10y ago

Why does "disabled" have the connotation of being unable to be productive, and the phrase "people with disabilities" not? Surely, if we use the phrase "people with disabilities" as we would have used "disabled", it will gain similar connotations, no? Sorry if i come off as confrontational, I'm legitimately curious

escapologybb 10y ago
I'm going to assume good faith and, in my very humble opinion, you are absolutely correct. If it's got the word disabled in it it has the same connotations. You. Are. Broken. Refer to all disabled people by their chosen name if you know it, otherwise ask them and then work around any logistical problems as they come up and as they are referred to you by the disabled person. Do not assume anything and do not push a wheelchair without asking and/or being asked. Even if a disabled person is lying on the ground, they will ask if they need help. Rules to live by able-bodied people, rules to live by!
grzm 10y ago
I believe the preference is due to "disabled person" has the connotation of "a person who is disabled", where "disabled" is an essential property of the person, while "person with disabilities" has the connotation where the disability is not essential to the person's definition: it's just one aspect of the person.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

costcopizza 10y ago

Nope, it is justified. People-first language is a subtle, but psychologically affecting issue. I.e. Saying "teenagers with Down syndrome" instead of "Down syndrome teenagers" You have a disability, you aren't defined by it. Source: Work for a nonprofit focused on serving kids and adults with various intellectual and developmental disabilities.

mwcampbell 10y ago
As I participate in this thread and think more about this, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, saying "disabled" instead of "with a disability" carries the implication that the disability makes you completely unable to do anything useful, like a disabled widget in a UI toolkit. In our language, the best way to avoid that implication, when talking about disabilities in general, is to say "with a disability" rather than "disabled". But when talking about a specific disability, language like "people who are blind", instead of "blind people", is just too damn clunky, without accomplishing anything, at least in my mind. I know plenty of blind people, and none of us use people-first language to refer to ourselves or each other.
- costcopizza 10y ago
  Interesting that you mention blindness. The National Federation of the Blind first condemned people-first language in 1993. It really does depend on the group, however in my area of intellectual and developmental disabilities (IDD) there is a push for it.

bryanrasmussen 10y ago

how was the site usability wise for you? Looking through the code I thought it would be irritating or difficult to search? Actually when I saw it I thought it might be useful for a project of mine where I will need to hire people to do accessibility testing, but I suppose that is about the only edge case I can think of that makes a disability job board useful. (note that by accessibility testing I would also like to test dyslexic usage, color blindness, and other disabilities rather than just blindness [ which in my experience is the disability most often tested for and then calling it a day])