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I'm all for news about novel treatments to common difficulties such as depression. That said, it would be best if there were substantive support for something b

I'm all for news about novel treatments to common difficulties such as depression. That said, it would be best if there were substantive support for something before it's spread around as a solution. Especially given the reproducibility questions that have come up in a range of fields lately, it seems a little premature to publish this anecdote. Even more so because this is exactly the sort of thing people may try at home. This time, that might not be so terrible. And there is the disclaimer that you shouldn't pull an all-night without clinical guidance. But that's not likely to be heeded, and it's a bad practice to be contributing to in terms of scientific literacy and trust.

marmaduke 10y ago
Do you think incumbent drugs companies with significant interest in keeping their expensive drugs on the market would let a free, anyone-can-do-it therapy see the light of day? Sunlight is a perfect and free remedy for jaundice and vitamin D deficiency, and yet the pediatrician will prescribe blue light therapy and vitamin D medicine and tell you to keep the baby out of sunlight. Scientific literacy and trust are conflated with industry interests, especially in medicine.
- WalterSear 10y ago
  It's not 'perfect'. Vitamin D deficiency has been detected in Hawaian professional surfers.
QUFB 10y ago
It isn't just one anecdote: there are dozens of studies spanning decades that demonstrate TSD (total sleep deprivation) and PSD (partial sleep deprivation) are effective in treating depression depression in the short term.
benevol 10y ago
> this is exactly the sort of thing people may try at home. I would actually strongly urge people who suffer from depression to experiment (while observing and adjusting diligently) with all kinds of things. Usually, when you suffer from depression, it's because you have lost some sort of balance - a happy life is about a rich mix of a lot of things, and sometimes you need to search and experiment to discover what is/was missing in your life for too long (and no doctor is ever equipped and able to give you the full solution you personally need). So go on, experiment and search until you find your way back to your equilibrium.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > I would actually strongly urge people who suffer from depression to experiment Do you say the same about eg cancer? > (while observing and adjusting diligently) Depression is an illness that affects a person to observe and adjust.
  - benevol 10y ago
    > Depression is an illness that affects a person to observe and adjust. This is true to some extent. I'd say it depends on the severity of the case. Yes, sometimes you depend on strong guidance from a doctor, because your brain is just completely out of order. But this is never the full and only answer to the source of the problem.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      I haven't said that treatment needs to be guided by a doctor. For clarity: I think telling people with depression to experiment with hallucinogens is fucking dangerous.
      - imagist 10y ago
        Why? Can you describe the dangers you're thinking of?
      - benevol 10y ago
        Which is why I always insist on "...if you have fully educated yourself on the matter and follow each and every one of the rules" (and this includes: don't touch it if you have schizophrenia or psychosis running in your family). It was btw how I managed to end depression while stopping meds completely. Also: cost = $30 for 1 dose + testing kit; compare that to the price of months/years of meds (this should be relevant especially for US citizens which do not benefit from a sane/affordable health care system). Not to mention their oftentimes heavy "side" effects which can even become permanent, such as the loss of libido, etc.
  - corin_ 10y ago
intralizee 10y ago
Are you arguing that the information should be held from the public or what exactly would have you done differently if writing the public report?
- GavinMcG 10y ago
  Given that it's not completed research, yes. If were the "public report" of completed research, I wouldn't have commented on not spreading information around until it's substantively supported.
spangry 10y ago
Yeah I'm not so sure that this could be a sustainable treatment, even if we assume it has some temporary mood-lifting effect. Speaking as someone who's now suffered through a series of major depressive episodes over the past year and a half, the only effects 2 nights+ sleep deprivation has had on me are: worse mood, dis-inhibition (sort of like being drunk), and mild auditory hallucinations. No long-term benefits that I've noticed, other than a bit of insight into the nature of (mild) hallucination (difficult to explain, but they're more like 'misinterpreting' things, rather than straight up imagining things that are not there). EDIT: I really would advise who is suffering from depression, if you're hell-bent on the DIY approach I wouldn't start with this one. Frankly, it could be dangerous. Maybe start with one of the more proven approaches: exercise, diet, mindfulness meditation or regular and sufficient sleep.
imagist 10y ago
There is nothing unscientific about anecdotes. The problem with anecdotes isn't that they are unscientific, it's that the scientific claims they allow you to make are very, very small. Anecdotally, I've found that Vitamin D3 helps me with motivation. That's a very small claim, but it's a scientific claim because I've experimented extensively with supplements to improve my motivation. However, "I've found that Vitamin D3 helps people with motivation" would not be a scientific claim, because I've only experimented on myself, and don't have enough evidence to extrapolate to the rest of humanity. Personal experimentation is a useful tool. It's how we know our personal preferences, fears, and hangups, which nobody else can tell us. Applying scientific process to it allows us to avoid some of our biases. We just have to be careful not to extrapolate our results to other people.

marmaduke 10y ago

Do you think incumbent drugs companies with significant interest in keeping their expensive drugs on the market would let a free, anyone-can-do-it therapy see the light of day? Sunlight is a perfect and free remedy for jaundice and vitamin D deficiency, and yet the pediatrician will prescribe blue light therapy and vitamin D medicine and tell you to keep the baby out of sunlight. Scientific literacy and trust are conflated with industry interests, especially in medicine.

WalterSear 10y ago
It's not 'perfect'. Vitamin D deficiency has been detected in Hawaian professional surfers.

QUFB 10y ago

It isn't just one anecdote: there are dozens of studies spanning decades that demonstrate TSD (total sleep deprivation) and PSD (partial sleep deprivation) are effective in treating depression depression in the short term.

benevol 10y ago

> this is exactly the sort of thing people may try at home. I would actually strongly urge people who suffer from depression to experiment (while observing and adjusting diligently) with all kinds of things. Usually, when you suffer from depression, it's because you have lost some sort of balance - a happy life is about a rich mix of a lot of things, and sometimes you need to search and experiment to discover what is/was missing in your life for too long (and no doctor is ever equipped and able to give you the full solution you personally need). So go on, experiment and search until you find your way back to your equilibrium.

DanBC 10y ago
> I would actually strongly urge people who suffer from depression to experiment Do you say the same about eg cancer? > (while observing and adjusting diligently) Depression is an illness that affects a person to observe and adjust.
- benevol 10y ago
  > Depression is an illness that affects a person to observe and adjust. This is true to some extent. I'd say it depends on the severity of the case. Yes, sometimes you depend on strong guidance from a doctor, because your brain is just completely out of order. But this is never the full and only answer to the source of the problem.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    I haven't said that treatment needs to be guided by a doctor. For clarity: I think telling people with depression to experiment with hallucinogens is fucking dangerous.
    - imagist 10y ago
      Why? Can you describe the dangers you're thinking of?
    - benevol 10y ago
      Which is why I always insist on "...if you have fully educated yourself on the matter and follow each and every one of the rules" (and this includes: don't touch it if you have schizophrenia or psychosis running in your family). It was btw how I managed to end depression while stopping meds completely. Also: cost = $30 for 1 dose + testing kit; compare that to the price of months/years of meds (this should be relevant especially for US citizens which do not benefit from a sane/affordable health care system). Not to mention their oftentimes heavy "side" effects which can even become permanent, such as the loss of libido, etc.
- corin_ 10y ago

intralizee 10y ago

Are you arguing that the information should be held from the public or what exactly would have you done differently if writing the public report?

GavinMcG 10y ago
Given that it's not completed research, yes. If were the "public report" of completed research, I wouldn't have commented on not spreading information around until it's substantively supported.

spangry 10y ago

Yeah I'm not so sure that this could be a sustainable treatment, even if we assume it has some temporary mood-lifting effect. Speaking as someone who's now suffered through a series of major depressive episodes over the past year and a half, the only effects 2 nights+ sleep deprivation has had on me are: worse mood, dis-inhibition (sort of like being drunk), and mild auditory hallucinations. No long-term benefits that I've noticed, other than a bit of insight into the nature of (mild) hallucination (difficult to explain, but they're more like 'misinterpreting' things, rather than straight up imagining things that are not there). EDIT: I really would advise who is suffering from depression, if you're hell-bent on the DIY approach I wouldn't start with this one. Frankly, it could be dangerous. Maybe start with one of the more proven approaches: exercise, diet, mindfulness meditation or regular and sufficient sleep.

imagist 10y ago

There is nothing unscientific about anecdotes. The problem with anecdotes isn't that they are unscientific, it's that the scientific claims they allow you to make are very, very small. Anecdotally, I've found that Vitamin D3 helps me with motivation. That's a very small claim, but it's a scientific claim because I've experimented extensively with supplements to improve my motivation. However, "I've found that Vitamin D3 helps people with motivation" would not be a scientific claim, because I've only experimented on myself, and don't have enough evidence to extrapolate to the rest of humanity. Personal experimentation is a useful tool. It's how we know our personal preferences, fears, and hangups, which nobody else can tell us. Applying scientific process to it allows us to avoid some of our biases. We just have to be careful not to extrapolate our results to other people.