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With Small Muslim Community, Italy Tries to Stop Extremism Before It Starts
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- charlesism 10y agoMirror: http://www.nasdaq.com/g00/article/with-small-muslim-community-italy-tries-to-stop-extremism-before-it-gets-started-20161201-00141?i10c.referrer= http://www.nasdaq.com/g00/article/with-small-muslim-communit...
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- vuanotinz 10y agoWhy let them in in the first place? Why this obsession western Europe has with self destruction? I'm soooooo looking forward to the rise of the far right in Europe because I'm soooooo tired of all of this, of all the news, of my girlfriend telling me how she doesn't feel secure walking alone in the city, I'm just so fucking tired of all of this, and over time it's just going to get worse.
- pjmlp 10y agoMaybe I shouldn't let you on my country as well...
- AckSyn 10y agoWell that depends. Does s/he come from a country known for its current religious extremism? Does s/he follow a religion that espouses violence? How about massive cultural differences, including violence? And the biggest one is is s/he willing to conform to the country they'll be moving to and assimilate to your country's culture etc? Those are pretty damn big reasons to not let someone in.
- pjmlp 10y agoYou mean like the biggest religion we have in Europe has done in the last 2000 years? Do you need examples?
- AckSyn 10y agoAre you seriously going to try to equate the most extreme differences in culture, religion, and modern history of violence from muslims to something that happened several hundred years ago?
- pjmlp 10y agoYes, it wasn't different in any way and still happens nowadays. Apparently you weren't born during Balkan wars.
- AckSyn 10y agoand most of the world has moved away from the barbarous ways of the past. Do you find it acceptable to tolerate that kind of behavior these days? Because I have news for you. It won't end well if we tolerate their intolerances, violence, and backward religious culture of oppression.
- pjmlp 10y agoIncluding by those that belong to the biggest religion in Europe, and use the name of God to justify war, crime, corruption, paedophile, forced conversion, support for dictatorships, state police and many other actions that just shame all kinds of religions.
- nolepointer 10y agoI tend to agree. But I don't think the politicians care; they see it as politically expedient. It is sad.
- cup 10y agoThe far right won't just come for Muslims. You're girlfriend better hope shes the right ethnicity, without the wrong blood type or any genetic inferiority. I love enlightened Europeans attitudes as soon as they don't get their way.
- dang 10y agoThis comment breaks the HN guidelines by continuing the flamewar and by calling names. It's not ok to violate the rules here, regardless of how badly other commenters have done so or how wrong they are. Otherwise we just get into a descending spiral. So please don't do this.
- Cyph0n 10y agoWhat happens after you expel Muslims? I'm assuming you won't find another scapegoat minority to pin all of your problems on. Definitely not, since Europe has never done that before. Regarding safety, you're telling me that your girlfriend will feel safe walking alone once there are no Muslims? Makes sense, I guess, since we Muslims designed the concepts of rape and burglary. Seriously though, there is some merit to what Italy is doing, but such a system can easily be abused. Extremism - of any kind! - is a tough problem to deal with.
- piotrjurkiewicz 10y ago> I'm assuming you won't find another scapegoat minority to pin all of your problems on. I fully agree with you. Muslims are just scapegoated, because they are minority. It has nothing to do with all these attacks, rapes, Calais, Rotherham. This is particularly vile having in mind that Muslims always belonged to Europe and Islamic tradition is the root of its culture. They are fully entitled to Europe. Or, if not fully, at least much more than those occupants who have been living for the last 2000 years.
- throwaway7312 10y agoDefinitely. If it wasn't Muslim youths blowing themselves up, castrating people in the Bataclan, and running over people in trucks, it'd be Protestant and Roman Catholic youths. Or maybe atheists. Atheists are usually pretty angry. We should bring in more Muslims, to make the Muslims who are already here feel more comfortable, so they don't blow up as much.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Cyph0n 10y agoNo, they did not. There are 1+ billion Muslims worldwide. There are over 5 million in France alone. If all Muslims actually supported the vile, disgusting acts that you speak of, Europe would be in pure chaos! Just imagine if 5 million "terrorists" went on a rampage in France. The fact that such terrible incidents are few and far in between is proof that the vast majority of Muslims have nothing to do with it. Ironically, most of the perpetrators of the recent terrorist attacks in Europe were quite assimilated into local culture. They drank, did not pray, and didn't actually know the basics of Islam in general! I believe that they were easy targets for recruiters because of their lack of knowledge. Moreover, I'm not sure how you can call someone who doesn't know how to practice a religion a follower of said religion.
- kohanz 10y agoIs this comment from 1930s Germany?
- k-mcgrady 10y ago"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me."
- AckSyn 10y agoThis is misapplied in this circumstance and is wholly inappropriate. When you have an invading culture that doesn't respect their host country's cultures and laws, that's called a problem and should be dealt with.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago> This is misapplied in this circumstance and is wholly inappropriate. It's entirely appropriate. Every country cannot be under attack by oncoming waves of Muslim immigrants and by a corrupt liberal elite at the same time. The OP, now flagged and removed, was openly cheering for the rise of far-right governments in Europe, and was spouting far-right rhetoric. Quoting a poem about the last time far-right governments took over Europe is very appropriate. Fascism must be opposed root and branch: any seemingly "relevant" points made in the name of fascism are in bad-faith, and are only being made to justify the advancement of fascism.
- izirik 10y agoI read your comments and my mind just have been blown. You are a citizen of a country which has strictest immigration limits in the world, targeted specifically at Muslims. They are officially treated as second class citizens there. They are being actively unsettled from your country, their homes are being demolished. There are walls on borders to prevent them from coming back and those who trespass them are being shot. And you accuse Europeans, who wants to protect their borders, of fascism? I have no words to describe your attitude. Hypocrisy is much too soft word.
- piotrjurkiewicz 10y ago
- krapp 10y ago>I'm soooooo looking forward to the rise of the far right in Europe because I'm soooooo tired of all of this, of all the news, of my girlfriend telling me how she doesn't feel secure walking alone in the city, It's interesting that even behind a green account, apparently created just to comment here, you're neither willing nor able to mention what city your girlfriend is too scared to walk alone in, for fear of the Muslim hordes. I don't know what's more disappointing, the low effort in your comment, or how readily people seem to be falling for the bait. We should demand higher standards, even from trolls.
- the-dude 10y agoTo give this guy some backup: this happens here in The Netherlands as well. Gay couples could feel safe in the public space at the end of last century. Now they are harassed, sometimes even to the point they decide to leave their neighbourhoods. It is not safe anymore to hold hands or kiss for gay couples in public spaces in Amsterdam. Young women without their hair covered are considered fair game by muslim youth and are less safe than before. Some students are actually starting to cover their hair in the evening to prevent getting harassed. Amsterdam past a 'law' last week to try to counter this harassment but it has no teeth, will be unenforceable. Not talking about problems do not make them go away.
- the-dude 10y agoBTW, I upvoted and vouched the OP. To reiterate, stiffling speech is not helping. It is a crude comment for sure. But still.
- icebraining 10y agoBut it's not just crude; it's both ignorant (there are millions of Muslims in the EU already, not "letting them in" is not a solution) and disgusting in its support for the political groups that damaged Europe at a level much greater than any radical Muslims could ever hope to. It's comments like those that derail reasonable conversations and make people like me want to stay the fuck away.
- the-dude 10y agoI have reread his comment now repeatedly and let us take it apart. 1. "Why let them in in the first place? Why this obsession western Europe has with self destruction?" Although loaded, these are questions. Maybe we should be able to answer these to this angry citizen. Apparently we failed. 2. "I'm soooooo looking forward to the rise of the far right" So here he is suggesting his solution. Well, that is just his opinion man. 3. "of all the news, of my girlfriend telling me how she doesn't feel secure walking alone in the city, I'm just so fucking tired of all of this, and over time it's just going to get worse." And here he is describing how he feels and how it affects him.
- dang 10y agoComments about inflammatory topics need to get more civil and substantive, not less, if you want to post them to HN. If you rant like this about a thorny social issue, you're just poisoning this place and setting it on fire. That's vandalism, regardless of the issue you're commenting on, and it's the opposite of what you ought to be doing if you're genuinely concerned about the substantial underlying problems. Please don't create HN accounts to break the site guidelines with.
- sakopov 10y agoIt really baffles me how the Muslim world turns its back on extremism and radicalization. Devout Muslims claim that Islamic extremists aren't real Muslims and just shrug it off. Wrong. They are a growing minority of Muslims whether you like it or not and Muslims need to deal with this plague before it turns Islam upside down. The more Muslims will keep ignoring this the more Islam will be treated as religion of terror and not peace and no western boots on the ground will ever fix this. The best response we've gotten so far is from the Kurds. Nobody else lifted a finger. Turkey even wanted money to accept Muslim refugees. Their own brethren and they wanted money for them... How does anyone expect things to get better when Muslims themselves don't give two shits?
- DanBC 10y ago> It really baffles me how the Muslim world turns its back on extremism and radicalization They don't; Muslims are involved in most of the de-radicalisation and de-extremism work in Europe.
- auganov 10y agoI certainly agree but there's only as many people of Muslim ancestry that do actively identify as Muslim, want a reform of Islamic thought and are able to safely speak out. Kurds are certainly Muslim, but you don't really see them ascribing their differing values to Islam too much [0]. Seems to stem from their ethnic identity. The best we can do is, I think, strongly incentivizing all the reformers. The vast majority of them today are in a sleazy situation. You complain to your compatriots - they'll lash out on you. You complain to the West - they'll ignore you. You complain to the Western right-wing[1] - they'll listen but use it to rationalize more hate. [0] and if they are at heart, then that's definitely not the message that's being broadcasted to the world [1] for the record obviously it's a hyperbole
- tptacek 10y agoWhat part of that comment could you possibly have agreed with? Are you accepting the premise that "the Muslim world" turns its back on extremism? Why? How familiar are you with the Muslim world? Who are the people most impacted by radical Islamic terrorism? Here's a hint: it's not non-Muslims! Islam accounts for a quarter of the world's population, and there are tens of thousands of Islamic scholars expressing a continuous spectrum of opinions about the role of Islam in politics, all of which then have to pass through the same lens of geopolitics --- that Egypt has national interests that align imperfectly with those of Turkey, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, &c --- that every other school of thought must. How could you possibly accept such a simplistic premise as "the Muslim world ignores extremism"? Do you find compelling the idea that Turkey should accommodate ISIS refugees without international subsidy simply because those refugees tend to be Muslim? Ignore for a second that Syrian refugees are not in fact all Muslims and stipulate instead that they are: what does a single shared cultural characteristic really tell us about Turkey's obligations to citizens of other countries? Put it this way: care to guess what the dominant religion of Latin America is? Is it therefore the case that the United States is obligated to accommodate every Latino immigrant? I'm having a hard time locating a single coherent point in the inflammatory comment you just "certainly agreed to". I don't mean "point I agree with"; I mean "point that exhibits any internal consistency". Can you help me understand what you found persuasive about it?
- danielam 10y ago"Liberalism and Islam": http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/01/liberalism-and-islam.html http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/01/liberalism-and-islam...
- dang 10y agoAll: toxic threads like the one below are the reason why we're going to try an experiment called "Political Detox Week" on Hacker News. For one week, starting Monday, all political stories and threads will be off topic. We'll kill them when we see them and ask users to flag them. Then we'll see what happens.
- kohanz 10y agoLove this idea. There are plenty of other places for vitriolic discussions like this on the internet and IMHO HN should not be one of them.
- cpach 10y agoI agree. HN will be better without threads about politics.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- webwanderings 10y agoWhen you say "all", make sure you follow through. But I don't know how you're going to distinguish between politics and 'current events'. In any case, US news seems to always take precedence over anyone else in the world.
- cpach 10y agoWhy do we need to discuss current events on HN? From the guidelines: ”If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic”.
- webwanderings 10y agoThat's what I meant exactly. When it comes to US news and big events, HN forgets all its policies. If the policy is "all" then stick with the principles, or else it doesn't work.
- piotrjurkiewicz 10y agoWhy so many people here attack so aggressively anyone who even suggests that Europe should not let everyone in? There are many countries which limit immigration (USA, Australia), or even make it practically impossible (rich Gulf states, Israel, Japan). But you don't compare them to 1930s Germany, do you? Why do you think that Europe ought to accept everyone who wants to live in there? I checked some profiles and it seems most of you live in the US. Why do you fell entitled to teach other people who they must let in into their houses? And compare them to Nazis if they don't want to? Not to mention that it is US who created this whole mess in the Middle East...