3 ms·

i have more faith in black people than you i guess, and think they are perfectly capable of getting an id.

paulmd 10y ago
So you're saying there's no such thing as institutional barriers and people just need to bootstrap their way out of a catch-22 style situation regarding their lack of documentation? Because that's how it works: you go to the clerk, they tell you you need a photo ID to get your birth certificate pulled (random people can't pull your birth certificate). Then you go to the Secretary of State and they tell you you need a birth certificate to prove citizenship, and to go back to the clerk and get it. At this point you then have to go try and fight it in courts and track down the doctor who birthed you to file an affadavit that you are who you say you are and were born in the country, and god help you if you have been uninsured/out of the medical system for a prolonged period of time, the doctor is dead or out of the country, etc. I'm not sure the privileged HN crowd understands how this works for regular workers who do retail or whatever: you ask for the day off, they say "sure you can go ahead and take it off, and if you do then don't bother coming back the next day, because you'll be fired. And don't try to collect unemployment either because it'll be for-cause". We have a lot of leverage and flexibility allowed because we are skilled workers. Regular people don't have that. Regular people can't afford to spend weeks and weeks bouncing between government offices and fighting it in courts. They just don't vote because they don't have the documentation. Which is the whole point of the voter restriction laws in the first place.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  thank you, you taught me something today. instead of saying i want to require people to have an id card, i'm going to start saying i want to restrict the vote from people who can't figure out how to get an id, just so that there's no ambiguity in my position.
darpa_escapee 10y ago
Then you are basing your opinion on a feeling or your reasoning doesn't reflect reality [0] [1] [2] [3]. According to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals on July 20th, 2016 with regards to Texas' voter ID initiative (SB 14) [1]: > Some of the dissenting opinions argue that the majority opinion holds the Legislature “liable for racial disparities [it] did not create” by failing to show that the statistical disparity in ID possession among different races is caused by a State policy, as opposed to socioeconomic and historical conditions. In fact, as discussed above, the district court found that SB 14 creates a racial disparity by requiring the use of certain IDs to vote that minorities disproportionately lack. Certainly the passage of SB 14 did not cause fewer minorities to possess certain IDs (like driver’s licenses or concealed handgun licenses). Rather, the district court found that socioeconomic and historical conditions contributed to this disparity in ID possession, which demonstrates why historical evidence of racism is relevant to the Section 2 analysis. > But SB 14 itself caused minorities to disproportionately lack the documentation that is required to vote by dictating that the documents and IDs required would be those that minorities disproportionately lack. We cannot ignore that in passing SB 14, the Legislature carefully selected the types of IDs that would be required to vote. In doing so, the Legislature selected IDs that minorities disproportionately do not possess and excluded IDs that minorities possess in greater numbers, without providing sufficient justification for those choices. > The fact that this occurred on a landscape where minorities are less likely to possess certain forms of ID or be able to obtain those IDs, at least in part as a result of past instances of State-sponsored discrimination, does not absolve the Legislature of responsibility. Accordingly, the district court’s conclusion that SB 14 created racial disparities in the possession of IDs required to vote is supported by the record. It's a little odd how, when voter ID laws are passed in certain states, 31 DMV locations are immediately closed[0]. It's almost as if those pushing for the policy don't want people to get an ID and vote, because people without ID tend to be in a certain demographic that doesn't vote for your party. [0] "Planned DMV closures in Alabama adds urgency to push to restore the Voting Rights Act" - https://www.splcenter.org/news/2015/10/02/planned-dmv-closures-alabama-adds-urgency-push-restore-voting-rights-act https://www.splcenter.org/news/2015/10/02/planned-dmv-closur... [1] "Why Voter ID Is Racial Discrimination, for the Record Republican supporters of voter ID laws have been more than candid about how they help their political chances." - http://www.citylab.com/politics/2016/07/why-voter-id-is-racial-discrimination-on-the-record/492347/?utm_source=nl__link6_072216 http://www.citylab.com/politics/2016/07/why-voter-id-is-raci... [2] "Court: North Carolina Voter ID Law Targeted Black Voters" - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/court-north-carolina-voter-id-law-targeted-black-voters/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/court-north-caroli... [3] "Getting a photo ID so you can vote is easy. Unless you’re poor, black, Latino or elderly." - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a...
- rokosbasilisk 10y ago
  Ok i think i get it. the problem isnt the id, its the getting it. So why cant we do what india did for over a billion people ? Does any one have real objection to ids beyond difficulty to get it?
  - darpa_escapee 10y ago
    I do: there is no evidence of voter fraud and America has a long history of using measures at the polls to prevent certain demographics, particularly black people, from voting. We made it illegal for black people to vote. Then they were given suffrage. So we had a poll test, pushed because people knew black people were less likely to be able to read. And we had a poll tax, pushed because we knew black people were less likely to be able to afford the tax. Those were made illegal. Now we have voter ID laws, pushed because a certain party knows it will prevent certain demographics from voting. Those are being made illegal in the states that they've been passed in. We need to look at these laws in a historical context. > So why cant we do what india did for over a billion people ? That would defeat the purpose of voter ID laws in America. I agree, if these laws were being promoted in good faith, there would be a well-funded initiative to get every single eligible voter a voter ID like there was in India. We wouldn't be closing down 31 DMVs in a state that just passed a voter ID law. But these laws aren't being pushed in good faith, they are being pushed for their downstream effects: less people will vote and, more importantly, less people in demographics who tend to vote for a certain party will vote.
    - beachstartup 10y ago
      pushing this narrative just cost the democrats all 3 branches of government. very few people still believe it, or care.
      - darpa_escapee 10y ago
        Without sources, we'll have to agree to disagree.
      - 10y ago

So you're saying there's no such thing as institutional barriers and people just need to bootstrap their way out of a catch-22 style situation regarding their lack of documentation? Because that's how it works: you go to the clerk, they tell you you need a photo ID to get your birth certificate pulled (random people can't pull your birth certificate). Then you go to the Secretary of State and they tell you you need a birth certificate to prove citizenship, and to go back to the clerk and get it. At this point you then have to go try and fight it in courts and track down the doctor who birthed you to file an affadavit that you are who you say you are and were born in the country, and god help you if you have been uninsured/out of the medical system for a prolonged period of time, the doctor is dead or out of the country, etc. I'm not sure the privileged HN crowd understands how this works for regular workers who do retail or whatever: you ask for the day off, they say "sure you can go ahead and take it off, and if you do then don't bother coming back the next day, because you'll be fired. And don't try to collect unemployment either because it'll be for-cause". We have a lot of leverage and flexibility allowed because we are skilled workers. Regular people don't have that. Regular people can't afford to spend weeks and weeks bouncing between government offices and fighting it in courts. They just don't vote because they don't have the documentation. Which is the whole point of the voter restriction laws in the first place.

beachstartup 10y ago
thank you, you taught me something today. instead of saying i want to require people to have an id card, i'm going to start saying i want to restrict the vote from people who can't figure out how to get an id, just so that there's no ambiguity in my position.

darpa_escapee 10y ago

Then you are basing your opinion on a feeling or your reasoning doesn't reflect reality [0] [1] [2] [3]. According to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals on July 20th, 2016 with regards to Texas' voter ID initiative (SB 14) [1]: > Some of the dissenting opinions argue that the majority opinion holds the Legislature “liable for racial disparities [it] did not create” by failing to show that the statistical disparity in ID possession among different races is caused by a State policy, as opposed to socioeconomic and historical conditions. In fact, as discussed above, the district court found that SB 14 creates a racial disparity by requiring the use of certain IDs to vote that minorities disproportionately lack. Certainly the passage of SB 14 did not cause fewer minorities to possess certain IDs (like driver’s licenses or concealed handgun licenses). Rather, the district court found that socioeconomic and historical conditions contributed to this disparity in ID possession, which demonstrates why historical evidence of racism is relevant to the Section 2 analysis. > But SB 14 itself caused minorities to disproportionately lack the documentation that is required to vote by dictating that the documents and IDs required would be those that minorities disproportionately lack. We cannot ignore that in passing SB 14, the Legislature carefully selected the types of IDs that would be required to vote. In doing so, the Legislature selected IDs that minorities disproportionately do not possess and excluded IDs that minorities possess in greater numbers, without providing sufficient justification for those choices. > The fact that this occurred on a landscape where minorities are less likely to possess certain forms of ID or be able to obtain those IDs, at least in part as a result of past instances of State-sponsored discrimination, does not absolve the Legislature of responsibility. Accordingly, the district court’s conclusion that SB 14 created racial disparities in the possession of IDs required to vote is supported by the record. It's a little odd how, when voter ID laws are passed in certain states, 31 DMV locations are immediately closed[0]. It's almost as if those pushing for the policy don't want people to get an ID and vote, because people without ID tend to be in a certain demographic that doesn't vote for your party. [0] "Planned DMV closures in Alabama adds urgency to push to restore the Voting Rights Act" - https://www.splcenter.org/news/2015/10/02/planned-dmv-closures-alabama-adds-urgency-push-restore-voting-rights-act https://www.splcenter.org/news/2015/10/02/planned-dmv-closur... [1] "Why Voter ID Is Racial Discrimination, for the Record Republican supporters of voter ID laws have been more than candid about how they help their political chances." - http://www.citylab.com/politics/2016/07/why-voter-id-is-racial-discrimination-on-the-record/492347/?utm_source=nl__link6_072216 http://www.citylab.com/politics/2016/07/why-voter-id-is-raci... [2] "Court: North Carolina Voter ID Law Targeted Black Voters" - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/court-north-carolina-voter-id-law-targeted-black-voters/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/court-north-caroli... [3] "Getting a photo ID so you can vote is easy. Unless you’re poor, black, Latino or elderly." - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a...

rokosbasilisk 10y ago
Ok i think i get it. the problem isnt the id, its the getting it. So why cant we do what india did for over a billion people ? Does any one have real objection to ids beyond difficulty to get it?
- darpa_escapee 10y ago
  I do: there is no evidence of voter fraud and America has a long history of using measures at the polls to prevent certain demographics, particularly black people, from voting. We made it illegal for black people to vote. Then they were given suffrage. So we had a poll test, pushed because people knew black people were less likely to be able to read. And we had a poll tax, pushed because we knew black people were less likely to be able to afford the tax. Those were made illegal. Now we have voter ID laws, pushed because a certain party knows it will prevent certain demographics from voting. Those are being made illegal in the states that they've been passed in. We need to look at these laws in a historical context. > So why cant we do what india did for over a billion people ? That would defeat the purpose of voter ID laws in America. I agree, if these laws were being promoted in good faith, there would be a well-funded initiative to get every single eligible voter a voter ID like there was in India. We wouldn't be closing down 31 DMVs in a state that just passed a voter ID law. But these laws aren't being pushed in good faith, they are being pushed for their downstream effects: less people will vote and, more importantly, less people in demographics who tend to vote for a certain party will vote.
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    pushing this narrative just cost the democrats all 3 branches of government. very few people still believe it, or care.
    - darpa_escapee 10y ago
      Without sources, we'll have to agree to disagree.
    - 10y ago