5 ms·

> It's a manufacturing industry where we have relatively advanced machinery to build the houses themselves; you'd think that the cost of housing would have drop

> It's a manufacturing industry where we have relatively advanced machinery to build the houses themselves; you'd think that the cost of housing would have dropped the way, say, cars or silicon has. I'm not sure why you think that. Unlike manufacturing cars or silicon, housing has very poor economies of scale. Building 10 houses isn't a whole lot cheaper than building 5. It's also a lot harder to make more efficient. Housing isn't manufactured in large factories where you can optimize every step of the process—instead, it's done by lots and lots of local firms. This leads to vast differences in the level of efficiency. There's also the problem that there is still a social stigma against "generic" housing. Having the same phone as everyone else isn't looked down upon, but mass-produced homes carry a definite negative connotation. People look down on cookie-cutter condos or manufactured homes. > But then, the price of raw unimproved land basically tracks inflation, indicating a competitive market. Where on earth are you getting that from? Raw land in the middle of nowhere might track inflation, but land near any jobs center certainly doesn't. That's also the explanation of where most of the profits go: to owners of appreciating land in desirable areas, which is a mix of professional speculators/investors and existing homeowners. Source: Spent Thanksgiving hearing about the frustrations my architect relatives have dealing with different contractors around the country.

mc32 10y ago
>Housing isn't manufactured in large factories where you can optimize every step of the process True it isn't, in large scales but it could be. Both for single family homes (manufactured homes) as well as for high-rises (PoC in China: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/30/chinese-construction-firm-erects-57-storey-skyscraper-in-19-days https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/30/chinese-constr...) or apt bldg. in Brooklyn http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2014/04/16/building-the-worlds-tallest-modular-apartment-tower/#4b63ed235913 http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2014/04/16/building-...) but most people aren't just into "utility" and want something which projects themselves and their values and sensibilities.
- niftich 10y ago
  Prefabricated housing [1] was also employed in Europe after WWII to accommodate the demand for housing in and around cities as many headed from rural areas to cities for work [2]. The social connotation usually varies by neighborhood, as with other types of housing, and merely living in a prefab flat is not commonly considered undesirable. Although most often found in the former Warsaw Pact countries, they are also fairly common in Sweden [2] and France [3]. The same can be said about Hong Kong [4] and Singapore [5]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panel%C3%A1k https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panel%C3%A1k [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Programme [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banlieue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banlieue [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Hong_Kong [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore
  - kuschku 10y ago
    > and merely living in a prefab flat is not commonly considered undesirable Ehm, no. Those prefab buildings are the immediate definition of "housing for unemployed immigrants". The social stigma is so bad, when I was in elementary school, I lived right next to one – and my grades were horrible. Some day, my parents told the teacher we actually owned a house right next to the bloc (the teacher had thought we lived in the bloc), and suddenly my grades jumped from D to A. All of them. The stigma is massive, and it will affect your life massively.
    - mc32 10y ago
      I think you're both right. In the eastern bloc I think the stigma was less and in Singapore there was no stigma that I could tell --maybe some super rich people might have looked down at people in the estates, but I didn't come across them. However, in France for sure there is stigma.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      Really depends on where you live. I'm writing this from a 2-room apartment in a modernized WBS 70/5 [1] in East Germany, and I have not noticed any social stigma until now. Instead, I get to enjoy the good prices (under 400 euros incl. utilities for 48 m² = 523 sq ft) and public transport connections. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBS_70 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBS_70
zardo 10y ago
>Unlike manufacturing cars or silicon, housing has very poor economies of scale. Building 10 houses isn't a whole lot cheaper than building 5. That's similar to cars. The economies of scale are there. You just need to sell 500,000 a year like a car manufacturer does. Also, cars have customers which will pay many multiples the normal price for new technology, and that market that lasted for a century.
- morgante 10y ago
  In what way is it similar to cars? If you want to mass-produce housing, you have to get around two very big barriers: 1. Most of the market looks down on mass-produced housing thanks to its association with trailer parks and/or identical condos. 2. Housing is mostly produced locally. Shipping large homes would be extremely difficult and expensive. > Also, cars have customers which will pay many multiples the normal price for new technology, and that market that lasted for a century. Sure, but that's equally true for housing. There are plenty of people who will pay a significant premium for a "smart home" or houses with energy efficient built in. This doesn't make mass-manufacturing easier.
  - sjg007 10y ago
    The reason we don't mass produce houses is because it is a job creator.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    > Housing is mostly produced locally. Shipping large homes would be extremely difficult and expensive. You don't need to ship the whole house in one piece. If you ship premanufactured panels (which is the common method), the price of shipping should be comparable to shipping the "ingredients" to the construction site.
  - zardo 10y ago
    The economies of scale that a manufacturer would get from cranking out hundreds of thousands of the same home a year are "real". There are a lot of reasons the market doesn't support such a business though. The smarthome market is just not in the same league as cars when it comes to an subsidizing technological development. There is no Formula 1 for housing.
nickles 10y ago
> It's also a lot harder to make more efficient. Housing isn't manufactured in large factories where you can optimize every step of the process—instead, it's done by lots and lots of local firms. This leads to vast differences in the level of efficiency. > There's also the problem that there is still a social stigma against "generic" housing. Having the same phone as everyone else isn't looked down upon, but mass-produced homes carry a definite negative connotation. People look down on cookie-cutter condos or manufactured homes. Agreed on both points. The firm Elemental Architecture utilizes 'incremental building' to help improve the efficiency of housing construction while simultaneously attempting to address the homogeneity of low cost housing projects. The idea is certainly in its nascency, but it seems like a novel approach. In short, low cost housing is constructed such that occupants are able to expand and adapt the lodging to their needs later on (paying for the materials and labor themselves). This approach was featured in Urbanized [0] (a documentary on urban design) and later in an episode of 99% Invisible [1], among other places, I assume. [0] http://www.hustwit.com/category/urbanized/ http://www.hustwit.com/category/urbanized/ [1] http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/half-a-house/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/half-a-house/

mc32 10y ago

>Housing isn't manufactured in large factories where you can optimize every step of the process True it isn't, in large scales but it could be. Both for single family homes (manufactured homes) as well as for high-rises (PoC in China: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/30/chinese-construction-firm-erects-57-storey-skyscraper-in-19-days https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/30/chinese-constr...) or apt bldg. in Brooklyn http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2014/04/16/building-the-worlds-tallest-modular-apartment-tower/#4b63ed235913 http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2014/04/16/building-...) but most people aren't just into "utility" and want something which projects themselves and their values and sensibilities.

niftich 10y ago
Prefabricated housing [1] was also employed in Europe after WWII to accommodate the demand for housing in and around cities as many headed from rural areas to cities for work [2]. The social connotation usually varies by neighborhood, as with other types of housing, and merely living in a prefab flat is not commonly considered undesirable. Although most often found in the former Warsaw Pact countries, they are also fairly common in Sweden [2] and France [3]. The same can be said about Hong Kong [4] and Singapore [5]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panel%C3%A1k https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panel%C3%A1k [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Programme [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banlieue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banlieue [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Hong_Kong [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore
- kuschku 10y ago
  > and merely living in a prefab flat is not commonly considered undesirable Ehm, no. Those prefab buildings are the immediate definition of "housing for unemployed immigrants". The social stigma is so bad, when I was in elementary school, I lived right next to one – and my grades were horrible. Some day, my parents told the teacher we actually owned a house right next to the bloc (the teacher had thought we lived in the bloc), and suddenly my grades jumped from D to A. All of them. The stigma is massive, and it will affect your life massively.
  - mc32 10y ago
    I think you're both right. In the eastern bloc I think the stigma was less and in Singapore there was no stigma that I could tell --maybe some super rich people might have looked down at people in the estates, but I didn't come across them. However, in France for sure there is stigma.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    Really depends on where you live. I'm writing this from a 2-room apartment in a modernized WBS 70/5 [1] in East Germany, and I have not noticed any social stigma until now. Instead, I get to enjoy the good prices (under 400 euros incl. utilities for 48 m² = 523 sq ft) and public transport connections. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBS_70 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBS_70

zardo 10y ago

>Unlike manufacturing cars or silicon, housing has very poor economies of scale. Building 10 houses isn't a whole lot cheaper than building 5. That's similar to cars. The economies of scale are there. You just need to sell 500,000 a year like a car manufacturer does. Also, cars have customers which will pay many multiples the normal price for new technology, and that market that lasted for a century.

morgante 10y ago
In what way is it similar to cars? If you want to mass-produce housing, you have to get around two very big barriers: 1. Most of the market looks down on mass-produced housing thanks to its association with trailer parks and/or identical condos. 2. Housing is mostly produced locally. Shipping large homes would be extremely difficult and expensive. > Also, cars have customers which will pay many multiples the normal price for new technology, and that market that lasted for a century. Sure, but that's equally true for housing. There are plenty of people who will pay a significant premium for a "smart home" or houses with energy efficient built in. This doesn't make mass-manufacturing easier.
- sjg007 10y ago
  The reason we don't mass produce houses is because it is a job creator.
- majewsky 10y ago
  > Housing is mostly produced locally. Shipping large homes would be extremely difficult and expensive. You don't need to ship the whole house in one piece. If you ship premanufactured panels (which is the common method), the price of shipping should be comparable to shipping the "ingredients" to the construction site.
- zardo 10y ago
  The economies of scale that a manufacturer would get from cranking out hundreds of thousands of the same home a year are "real". There are a lot of reasons the market doesn't support such a business though. The smarthome market is just not in the same league as cars when it comes to an subsidizing technological development. There is no Formula 1 for housing.

nickles 10y ago

> It's also a lot harder to make more efficient. Housing isn't manufactured in large factories where you can optimize every step of the process—instead, it's done by lots and lots of local firms. This leads to vast differences in the level of efficiency. > There's also the problem that there is still a social stigma against "generic" housing. Having the same phone as everyone else isn't looked down upon, but mass-produced homes carry a definite negative connotation. People look down on cookie-cutter condos or manufactured homes. Agreed on both points. The firm Elemental Architecture utilizes 'incremental building' to help improve the efficiency of housing construction while simultaneously attempting to address the homogeneity of low cost housing projects. The idea is certainly in its nascency, but it seems like a novel approach. In short, low cost housing is constructed such that occupants are able to expand and adapt the lodging to their needs later on (paying for the materials and labor themselves). This approach was featured in Urbanized [0] (a documentary on urban design) and later in an episode of 99% Invisible [1], among other places, I assume. [0] http://www.hustwit.com/category/urbanized/ http://www.hustwit.com/category/urbanized/ [1] http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/half-a-house/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/half-a-house/