5 ms·

> I asked what would happen if I didn't turn the password over and just went back home to the US, they told me they'd seize the device and put me in prison unti

> I asked what would happen if I didn't turn the password over and just went back home to the US, they told me they'd seize the device and put me in prison until they break into it. I guess it depends on how much you care about your personal info or how sensitive your data is, but I wouldn't budge based on this. I'd say, "Okay, I want to talk to the American embassy," then wait it out. Edit: To be clear, this would be my response without knowing anything about the relevant Canadian law — since I don't – because the statement sounds like a lie. LE lies all the time. Indefinite imprisonment of a random person? Nah. And breaking into a locked phone is actually very difficult — see Apple versus FBI.

jliptzin 10y ago
Actually if I were alone I would have done that just to prove a point, but I was with my SO and I didn't want to ruin his vacation as well.
- snowwindwaves 10y ago
  Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border. Even if you decide not to enter as opposed to being denied I bet it pops up on their screen for a long time.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - empressplay 10y ago
    Forever, actually.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border. If a border agent threatened me with jail, I don't think that being unable to return would be a problem for me. :-) (Disclaimer: having no family in Canada, or any real need to be there.)
  - kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
    Even if you've done nothing "suspicious", you can get automatic screenings just for having a name that is a Soundex match to a fugitive.
DrJokepu 10y ago
Is this a right you have in Canada? Can't they just be like "yeah, no"?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- exolymph 10y ago
  Maybe. I don't know. But law enforcement routinely lie, so I default to not taking them at face value. If I had a pressing medical need or something like that, I would probably bet differently.
  - DrJokepu 10y ago
    I was asking because while I have never had a personal experience regarding the subject, one of my wife's (US citizen) friends was once locked up in the United Arab Emirates for the heinous crime of being drunk and it took quite a bit of effort to get him out of jail (and even then he wasn't allowed to leave the country for another 6 months) and he received _zero_ assistance from the US government. Now obviously Canada is not comparable to the United Arab Emirates in this regard but clearly when you're abroad you enjoy no legal protection beyond what the host nation's local laws provide you with?
- empressplay 10y ago
  Unlike in the US, illegal and unadmitted entrants to Canada, the UK, Australia (and probably everywhere else) don't have constitutional protection. So while a Canadian could possibly protest, a non-Canadian really hasn't got a leg to stand on.
  - digler999 10y ago
    > Unlike in the US No, just like the US: https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
  - curried_haskell 10y ago
edblarney 10y ago
" I'd say, "Okay, I want to talk to the American embassy," then wait it out." You'd be waiting forever.
- exolymph 10y ago
  I doubt it, because it would end up being a PR storm for Canada, just like this event. I have people who would want to know where I was. I might end up waiting weeks or months, though. It's hard to be sure without knowing more about Canadian law and enforcement norms.
  - edblarney 10y ago
    No, it would not be a 'PR storm'. This kind of stuff happens all day, every day, at every one of the major border crossings. You'd be denied entry and that would be the end of it. "I might end up waiting weeks or months, though." The American embassy will tell you there's nothing they can do, and you'd be waiting in perpetuity in a hotel on the American side of the border.
    - Joky 10y ago
      I think the point was that it was an answer to the jail threat...
    - 3131s 10y ago
      Exactly. This topic has come up on HN before and we've had HNers tell even more horrifying stories than today and nothing comes of it. Getting an attitude and trying to appeal to your legal rights will just embolden some of these powertripping authority figures. It's best to come prepared, either with a TrueCrypt plausible deniability type solution or just by wiping / clearing out your OS beforehand. I chose the latter option when I flew into the US, because I'd imagine even FDE might look suspicious enough to warrant getting hastled or detained.
      - edblarney 10y ago
        "Getting an attitude and trying to appeal to your legal rights will just embolden some of these powertripping authority figures." The thing is, you may not have such 'rights', at least not in a legal sense. I suggest the duderinos at the border are well aware of what they can, and cannot do. If you have a beef, it's with Homeland Security or Congress, not the border guy. And if you're entering a foreign country ... well, your legal rights are pretty thin. So there's that.
empressplay 10y ago
You're under the mistaken impression that when you enter a border crossing you can turn around and go home without the permission of the country you're attempting to enter. This is not true. You've already entered the country, and so the border staff (US, Canadian, whoever) can indeed detain you, throw you into immigration detention, take all your stuff, really whatever they want. You don't have any rights. You could call your embassy, but they will tell you that so long as the other country is following its own laws, you're stuck, and they can't help you. If you don't like it, don't go.
- goodcanadian 10y ago
  There is one exception. US immigration runs "preclearance" facilities at major Canadian airports (and a handful of other places). Here, you clear US customs and immigration before you ever board your flight. Because these facilities are still on Canadian soil, you are free to turn around and walk away at any time; they cannot detain you as they can at land borders or US airports.
  - michaelhoffman 10y ago
    Under the proposed Preclearance Bill (Bill C-23), if you are legally detained by a U.S. preclearance officer you do not have the right to withdraw anymore. http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=8380353 http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Lan...
    - koenigdavidmj 10y ago
      So Canada is willingly becoming a literal American colony?
- uiuiuop 10y ago
  What if I make a break for the US border? Will they bring me back to the Canadians?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
YZF 10y ago
I think the correct legal approach there is to say that you are withdrawing your application to enter Canada. They're supposed to let you go back to the US at this point. I am not a lawyer.
- dawnerd 10y ago
  I believe they still track this with your fingerprints so next time you try to enter you'll be asked about it. Best to be nice to the agents even if they're not being nice back. People that create a scene are the ones that end up basically banned for life.
  - YZF 10y ago
    It can be better than some alternatives. There have been stories about Canadians being asked questions about drug use at the border. Upon admitting to some historic use getting barred for life for entering. Supposedly they could have avoided answering the question by withdrawing their application (according to the lawyer consulted). This is better than getting barred for life or being refused entry and you have time to consider your options. Obviously best not get into this position in the first place but sometimes it's not your choice.

jliptzin 10y ago

Actually if I were alone I would have done that just to prove a point, but I was with my SO and I didn't want to ruin his vacation as well.

snowwindwaves 10y ago
Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border. Even if you decide not to enter as opposed to being denied I bet it pops up on their screen for a long time.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- empressplay 10y ago
  Forever, actually.
- mikestew 10y ago
  Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border. If a border agent threatened me with jail, I don't think that being unable to return would be a problem for me. :-) (Disclaimer: having no family in Canada, or any real need to be there.)
- kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
  Even if you've done nothing "suspicious", you can get automatic screenings just for having a name that is a Soundex match to a fugitive.

DrJokepu 10y ago

Is this a right you have in Canada? Can't they just be like "yeah, no"?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
exolymph 10y ago
Maybe. I don't know. But law enforcement routinely lie, so I default to not taking them at face value. If I had a pressing medical need or something like that, I would probably bet differently.
- DrJokepu 10y ago
  I was asking because while I have never had a personal experience regarding the subject, one of my wife's (US citizen) friends was once locked up in the United Arab Emirates for the heinous crime of being drunk and it took quite a bit of effort to get him out of jail (and even then he wasn't allowed to leave the country for another 6 months) and he received _zero_ assistance from the US government. Now obviously Canada is not comparable to the United Arab Emirates in this regard but clearly when you're abroad you enjoy no legal protection beyond what the host nation's local laws provide you with?
empressplay 10y ago
Unlike in the US, illegal and unadmitted entrants to Canada, the UK, Australia (and probably everywhere else) don't have constitutional protection. So while a Canadian could possibly protest, a non-Canadian really hasn't got a leg to stand on.
- digler999 10y ago
  > Unlike in the US No, just like the US: https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
- curried_haskell 10y ago

edblarney 10y ago

" I'd say, "Okay, I want to talk to the American embassy," then wait it out." You'd be waiting forever.

exolymph 10y ago
I doubt it, because it would end up being a PR storm for Canada, just like this event. I have people who would want to know where I was. I might end up waiting weeks or months, though. It's hard to be sure without knowing more about Canadian law and enforcement norms.
- edblarney 10y ago
  No, it would not be a 'PR storm'. This kind of stuff happens all day, every day, at every one of the major border crossings. You'd be denied entry and that would be the end of it. "I might end up waiting weeks or months, though." The American embassy will tell you there's nothing they can do, and you'd be waiting in perpetuity in a hotel on the American side of the border.
  - Joky 10y ago
    I think the point was that it was an answer to the jail threat...
  - 3131s 10y ago
    Exactly. This topic has come up on HN before and we've had HNers tell even more horrifying stories than today and nothing comes of it. Getting an attitude and trying to appeal to your legal rights will just embolden some of these powertripping authority figures. It's best to come prepared, either with a TrueCrypt plausible deniability type solution or just by wiping / clearing out your OS beforehand. I chose the latter option when I flew into the US, because I'd imagine even FDE might look suspicious enough to warrant getting hastled or detained.
    - edblarney 10y ago
      "Getting an attitude and trying to appeal to your legal rights will just embolden some of these powertripping authority figures." The thing is, you may not have such 'rights', at least not in a legal sense. I suggest the duderinos at the border are well aware of what they can, and cannot do. If you have a beef, it's with Homeland Security or Congress, not the border guy. And if you're entering a foreign country ... well, your legal rights are pretty thin. So there's that.

empressplay 10y ago

You're under the mistaken impression that when you enter a border crossing you can turn around and go home without the permission of the country you're attempting to enter. This is not true. You've already entered the country, and so the border staff (US, Canadian, whoever) can indeed detain you, throw you into immigration detention, take all your stuff, really whatever they want. You don't have any rights. You could call your embassy, but they will tell you that so long as the other country is following its own laws, you're stuck, and they can't help you. If you don't like it, don't go.

goodcanadian 10y ago
There is one exception. US immigration runs "preclearance" facilities at major Canadian airports (and a handful of other places). Here, you clear US customs and immigration before you ever board your flight. Because these facilities are still on Canadian soil, you are free to turn around and walk away at any time; they cannot detain you as they can at land borders or US airports.
- michaelhoffman 10y ago
  Under the proposed Preclearance Bill (Bill C-23), if you are legally detained by a U.S. preclearance officer you do not have the right to withdraw anymore. http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=8380353 http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Lan...
  - koenigdavidmj 10y ago
    So Canada is willingly becoming a literal American colony?
uiuiuop 10y ago
What if I make a break for the US border? Will they bring me back to the Canadians?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

YZF 10y ago

I think the correct legal approach there is to say that you are withdrawing your application to enter Canada. They're supposed to let you go back to the US at this point. I am not a lawyer.

dawnerd 10y ago
I believe they still track this with your fingerprints so next time you try to enter you'll be asked about it. Best to be nice to the agents even if they're not being nice back. People that create a scene are the ones that end up basically banned for life.
- YZF 10y ago
  It can be better than some alternatives. There have been stories about Canadians being asked questions about drug use at the border. Upon admitting to some historic use getting barred for life for entering. Supposedly they could have avoided answering the question by withdrawing their application (according to the lawyer consulted). This is better than getting barred for life or being refused entry and you have time to consider your options. Obviously best not get into this position in the first place but sometimes it's not your choice.