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> So equate it to production and distribution of illicit material? No, that's missing the point. I know what silly legal maneuverings are, but I know that they

> So equate it to production and distribution of illicit material? No, that's missing the point. I know what silly legal maneuverings are, but I know that they're self-contradictory and worthless. If I went far enough down that rabbit-hole I could justify banning anything by relating it to child abuse. > Programming isn't illegal - but coding a program for a game that directly goes against the Terms of Service of a company is. Sorry, but I don't consider ToS binding. Maybe on my use of the site, but not simply on software I bought. Otherwise the word "bought" is meaningless. Also, if they can do that then they have the ability to simply forbid reverse engineering, etc, which is utterly ridiculous. > Can you provide me an example of aimbotting in a multiplayer game that isn't "bad"? Can you prove you aren't a nazi sympathizer? No, and it isn't your responsibility to do so. Similarly, it's not my job to defend aimbots. If you want to play without aimbots, play with friends or with people who contract away their otherwise legal rights.

Nadya 10y ago
>Sorry, but I don't consider ToS binding. Maybe on my use of the site, but not simply on software I bought. Otherwise the word "bought" is meaningless. Then don't agree to the Terms of Service! To connect to the servers you must agree to the Terms of Service. Feel free to buy a copy of your game but be unable to play it because you cannot connect to their servers (which you are not paying for). If you do not like that, then do not purchase the game or purchase a single-player game that does not rely on servers to play on. Also "I don't consider laws binding" wouldn't be a permissible defense. The T.O.S is now backed by law. >Can you prove you aren't a nazi sympathizer? No, and it isn't your responsibility to do so. You cannot prove the non-existence of something. I'm asking you to prove something exists. You make the claim that aimbots have a legitimate reason to be created: name that reason. I can list ways to use a gun that don't involve killing people - hunting and sport (skeet shooting). There are no alternative purposes of cheating software other than to cheat just like there is no other purpose of a calculator other than to calculate.
- EdHominem 10y ago
  > The T.O.S is now backed by law. Pft. Which law, where? And what provisions? It's vastly more complex than that even where it did sneak in. And between me and South Korea? Very little chance. > I'm asking you to prove something exists. No, you're asking for me to prove something to your satisfaction when you're predisposed to dislike it regardless. It's similarly impossible. > There are no alternative purposes of cheating software other than to cheat just like there is no other purpose of a calculator other than to calculate. Which isn't actually true. It can exist just for the sheer joy and reversing and controlling a new program. But even at that, "to cheat", isn't damning. Even perfect aimbots aren't perfect players and a lot of people enjoy fighting someone using an aimbot. Personally I'd rather play against an aimbot than a camper. At least one justifies their slot on the server. Anyways, it's your responsibility to curate your friends list to find people you enjoy playing with, not to sanitize the gaming population until you're sure nobody is left who might offend you. And especially not to enforce general purpose bans on computer exploration which this amounts to.
  - Nadya 10y ago
    Then build your own game and run your own servers and hack those. Problem solved. You don't need to purchase their games, agree to their T.O.S, or have any affiliation with them. The majority of the gaming community doesn't want people like you in it which is why companies spend such large amounts of money to develop tools to keep hackers out. If it didn't "kill" games (see: The Division losing over 95% of the player base on PC due to overwhelming amounts of hackers) then companies wouldn't care. >"to cheat", isn't damning In nearly every other aspect of life and any other comparison you'd be laughed out of the room for this. Go cheat at a casino? At a competition? And see where it gets you. But for some reason it's okay for video games?
    - EdHominem 10y ago
      > Then build your own game and run your own servers and hack those. No, hacking something you wrote doesn't make sense. You couldn't surprise yourself, or learn anything. > You don't need to purchase their games, agree to their T.O.S, or have any affiliation with them. Even if I purchased their game I wouldn't agree to their ToS so no worries. Nor would I have any affiliation with them. > The majority of the gaming community doesn't want people like you in it which is why companies spend such large amounts of money to develop tools to keep hackers out. That's what you're told, but the companies are far more hostile against cheats in games like WoW where cheating simply means playing the parts you want without the grind (and the inevitable in-app purchase to get past the grind.) > >"to cheat", isn't damning > In nearly every other aspect of life and any other comparison you'd be laughed out of the room for this. No, that just shows your prejudices. I cheat at the parts of single-player games that I find boring. If the room is full of boring rule-followers who can't play the game of solitaire that they enjoy playing, I'd be laughing at them. > Go cheat at a casino? I don't know a single person who'd be upset about that. They'd all laugh and say "Don't get caught" but no more. > At a competition? Oh, are you the sort of person who likes to cheat in competitions? That is lame. I like bikes because they let me cheat at walking. I get where I want to go faster. I have no compulsion to be seen to be better than you so I don't care about racking up "victories". But I still think it's mentally defective to pass a law preventing reverse engineering just to let some people have their trophies.

Nadya 10y ago

>Sorry, but I don't consider ToS binding. Maybe on my use of the site, but not simply on software I bought. Otherwise the word "bought" is meaningless. Then don't agree to the Terms of Service! To connect to the servers you must agree to the Terms of Service. Feel free to buy a copy of your game but be unable to play it because you cannot connect to their servers (which you are not paying for). If you do not like that, then do not purchase the game or purchase a single-player game that does not rely on servers to play on. Also "I don't consider laws binding" wouldn't be a permissible defense. The T.O.S is now backed by law. >Can you prove you aren't a nazi sympathizer? No, and it isn't your responsibility to do so. You cannot prove the non-existence of something. I'm asking you to prove something exists. You make the claim that aimbots have a legitimate reason to be created: name that reason. I can list ways to use a gun that don't involve killing people - hunting and sport (skeet shooting). There are no alternative purposes of cheating software other than to cheat just like there is no other purpose of a calculator other than to calculate.

EdHominem 10y ago
> The T.O.S is now backed by law. Pft. Which law, where? And what provisions? It's vastly more complex than that even where it did sneak in. And between me and South Korea? Very little chance. > I'm asking you to prove something exists. No, you're asking for me to prove something to your satisfaction when you're predisposed to dislike it regardless. It's similarly impossible. > There are no alternative purposes of cheating software other than to cheat just like there is no other purpose of a calculator other than to calculate. Which isn't actually true. It can exist just for the sheer joy and reversing and controlling a new program. But even at that, "to cheat", isn't damning. Even perfect aimbots aren't perfect players and a lot of people enjoy fighting someone using an aimbot. Personally I'd rather play against an aimbot than a camper. At least one justifies their slot on the server. Anyways, it's your responsibility to curate your friends list to find people you enjoy playing with, not to sanitize the gaming population until you're sure nobody is left who might offend you. And especially not to enforce general purpose bans on computer exploration which this amounts to.
- Nadya 10y ago
  Then build your own game and run your own servers and hack those. Problem solved. You don't need to purchase their games, agree to their T.O.S, or have any affiliation with them. The majority of the gaming community doesn't want people like you in it which is why companies spend such large amounts of money to develop tools to keep hackers out. If it didn't "kill" games (see: The Division losing over 95% of the player base on PC due to overwhelming amounts of hackers) then companies wouldn't care. >"to cheat", isn't damning In nearly every other aspect of life and any other comparison you'd be laughed out of the room for this. Go cheat at a casino? At a competition? And see where it gets you. But for some reason it's okay for video games?
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    > Then build your own game and run your own servers and hack those. No, hacking something you wrote doesn't make sense. You couldn't surprise yourself, or learn anything. > You don't need to purchase their games, agree to their T.O.S, or have any affiliation with them. Even if I purchased their game I wouldn't agree to their ToS so no worries. Nor would I have any affiliation with them. > The majority of the gaming community doesn't want people like you in it which is why companies spend such large amounts of money to develop tools to keep hackers out. That's what you're told, but the companies are far more hostile against cheats in games like WoW where cheating simply means playing the parts you want without the grind (and the inevitable in-app purchase to get past the grind.) > >"to cheat", isn't damning > In nearly every other aspect of life and any other comparison you'd be laughed out of the room for this. No, that just shows your prejudices. I cheat at the parts of single-player games that I find boring. If the room is full of boring rule-followers who can't play the game of solitaire that they enjoy playing, I'd be laughing at them. > Go cheat at a casino? I don't know a single person who'd be upset about that. They'd all laugh and say "Don't get caught" but no more. > At a competition? Oh, are you the sort of person who likes to cheat in competitions? That is lame. I like bikes because they let me cheat at walking. I get where I want to go faster. I have no compulsion to be seen to be better than you so I don't care about racking up "victories". But I still think it's mentally defective to pass a law preventing reverse engineering just to let some people have their trophies.