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for me, yeah, meditation and exercise has helped quite a lot because they both directly reward and reinforce accepting struggle or challenge very shortly after

for me, yeah, meditation and exercise has helped quite a lot because they both directly reward and reinforce accepting struggle or challenge very shortly after doing it and the effect builds through persistence. I don't like to call it "pain" or "suffering" - I think "strain" or "tension" is a much much better to put it because you can strain to do something pleasant like when we squint to try to see something better, or when we stretch to loosen up our muscles. Describing it as pain or suffering isn't going to help anyone standing on the outside of learned-helplessness - for a long time I associated "hard work" with doing things just because you felt like you had to because of that mindset and because of public schooling/being told what to do as a kid and so I carried on that refusal into my adult life. It's taken a couple years to learn that effort is fun /in the moment/ too if you /care/ about it - look up flow states. we tend to make things like exercise and so on into these grueling things that we do as if out of this sense of duty. we don't really have to do anything - we can never get out of bed and starve to death. nobody's going to judge us for that, and if the only thing that makes you choose different is feeling guilty then you need to find your motivation. for me, the less I judge myself for not doing, often the quicker I get started. it's been tough to remember that - I can still agonize with patterns like "analysis paralysis" and I have to just stop, and go do something totally unproductive until my motivation returns. It's kind of like diffused/focused thinking as applies to learning, or anabolic/catabolic processes for weight lifting.

hosh 10y ago
I'm specifically using pain and suffering because I am not talking in metaphors and I am not trying to dress it up or down. I am not trying to comfort myself or others, and I am not trying to ennoble this. I am not trying to put lipstick on a pig. Pain is literally, physical pain sensations, no more, no less. By suffering, I am speaking about dukkha, or existential anguish. When you try to make something into something else in order to make it more pleasant, that is a form of a story in the head. It will work for awhile until it doesn't. The whole point of mindulfness meditation is awakening to what is, not what you wish things are. It doesn't matter whether you are doing something you think is pleasant or not, dukkha is present there. Strain and tension contains pain. Dukkha is only there when someone is not mindful. Ironically, by being present to the actual amount of pain, the dukkha lessens: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-coolest-psychological-trick/answer/Barnard-Law-Collier https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-coolest-psychological-tric... (Quora answer, not mine's, that explains this very well). Learned helplessness is a story in the head. There are methods to dissolve and deconstruct that which I will not mention here. When you replace that story with a different story, you are creating the conditions for your next disappointment. Real power and freedom comes from releasing the stories that prop up your identity. Now having said all of that, I had written about "supports" here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13091341 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13091341 ... So long as those support help you in your practice, it's great. At some point, those supports become obstacles themselves. They are, after all, stories in the head. > we tend to make things like exercise and so on into these grueling things that we do as if out of this sense of duty. we don't really have to do anything If we don't have to do anything, then what is the point of living and struggling? If you lose your motivation for living and struggling, then what happens when you really need to make it through? This was the paradox that was resolved for me with non-dual Shaiva Tantra.
- ashleypt 10y ago
  >I'm specifically using pain and suffering because I am not talking in metaphors and I am not trying to dress it up or down. I am not trying to comfort myself or others, and I am not trying to ennoble this. I am not trying to put lipstick on a pig. Pain is literally, physical pain sensations, no more, no less. By suffering, I am speaking about dukkha, or existential anguish. I'm not trying to put lipstick on a pig either. I'm trying to explain very real experiences I've had in a way that people who don't understand delayed gratification (yet) won't misinterpret due to false definitions instilled in their past. >When you try to make something into something else in order to make it more pleasant, that is a form of a story in the head. It will work for awhile until it doesn't. The whole point of mindulfness meditation is awakening to what is, not what you wish things are. Okay, why are you responding to my comment with this? Did I somehow contradict this notion? >It doesn't matter whether you are doing something you think is pleasant or not, dukkha is present there. Strain and tension contains pain. Dukkha is only there when someone is not mindful. Ironically, by being present to the actual amount of pain, the dukkha lessens: Strain and tension don't necessarily contain pain. During physical exercise the body releases a flood of endorphins (ie natural painkillers) that numb it. I believe I've heard meditation does something similar. I can think of numerous other examples of strain that doesn't contain pain - working really hard to solve a puzzle, learning a new skill, or completing a really difficult project. Flow state is when we have high strain and tension but a high sense of efficacy and well-being. >Learned helplessness is a story in the head. There are methods to dissolve and deconstruct that which I will not mention here. When you replace that story with a different story, you are creating the conditions for your next disappointment. Real power and freedom comes from releasing the stories that prop up your identity. beliefs are just descriptions about reality that can be either true or false, but we can indeed be fooled by false beliefs or become dependent on true ones which may change in the future. I agree that equanimity is a great virtue which can be cultivated through regular meditation. you don't have to overcomplicate something by alluding to some mysterious methods which you know but won't explain. you can break down false beliefs through mindfulness which is the technique behind cognitive behavioral therapy. there is nothing wrong with forming new positive beliefs as long as they are accurate and you understand that reality is always changing and they may become false in the future. you must maintain a regular practice of mindfulness if you want to minimize false beliefs. >If we don't have to do anything, then what is the point of living and struggling? There's no objective reason to live and struggle floating out in reality. They are impulses generated within human beings through genetic, internal (ie mental/cyclical), and environmental influences. If you don't have them, you can try to cultivate them, if you don't believing that you "have to" do things is a very hollow substitute. >If you lose your motivation for living and struggling, then what happens when you really need to make it through? You find it or you die. This is self-evident, if this wasn't true, then suicides wouldn't happen. You need to find a strong, positive, inner source of this motivation and remain vigilant once you do or you will find half-ways to slowly kill yourself - purposely getting in unhealthy relationships, acquiring addictions or bad health habits, or overworking yourself. >This was the paradox that was resolved for me with non-dual Shaiva Tantra. I have no idea what paradox you're referring to. I'm not seeing one here. If you think that we either objectively have to do things or there's no point in living and struggling, that sounds like a pretty dualist concept to me. I have no idea what the "shaiva tantra" is and honestly I think it's best for those trying to find a way out of a dark place, as well as those trying to understand these life principles, to abandon these cryptic terms and speak simply or using well-established modern language. Isn't the point of communication to transmit knowledge? You're doing a poor job when you use obscure terms without defining them.

hosh 10y ago

I'm specifically using pain and suffering because I am not talking in metaphors and I am not trying to dress it up or down. I am not trying to comfort myself or others, and I am not trying to ennoble this. I am not trying to put lipstick on a pig. Pain is literally, physical pain sensations, no more, no less. By suffering, I am speaking about dukkha, or existential anguish. When you try to make something into something else in order to make it more pleasant, that is a form of a story in the head. It will work for awhile until it doesn't. The whole point of mindulfness meditation is awakening to what is, not what you wish things are. It doesn't matter whether you are doing something you think is pleasant or not, dukkha is present there. Strain and tension contains pain. Dukkha is only there when someone is not mindful. Ironically, by being present to the actual amount of pain, the dukkha lessens: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-coolest-psychological-trick/answer/Barnard-Law-Collier https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-coolest-psychological-tric... (Quora answer, not mine's, that explains this very well). Learned helplessness is a story in the head. There are methods to dissolve and deconstruct that which I will not mention here. When you replace that story with a different story, you are creating the conditions for your next disappointment. Real power and freedom comes from releasing the stories that prop up your identity. Now having said all of that, I had written about "supports" here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13091341 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13091341 ... So long as those support help you in your practice, it's great. At some point, those supports become obstacles themselves. They are, after all, stories in the head. > we tend to make things like exercise and so on into these grueling things that we do as if out of this sense of duty. we don't really have to do anything If we don't have to do anything, then what is the point of living and struggling? If you lose your motivation for living and struggling, then what happens when you really need to make it through? This was the paradox that was resolved for me with non-dual Shaiva Tantra.

ashleypt 10y ago
>I'm specifically using pain and suffering because I am not talking in metaphors and I am not trying to dress it up or down. I am not trying to comfort myself or others, and I am not trying to ennoble this. I am not trying to put lipstick on a pig. Pain is literally, physical pain sensations, no more, no less. By suffering, I am speaking about dukkha, or existential anguish. I'm not trying to put lipstick on a pig either. I'm trying to explain very real experiences I've had in a way that people who don't understand delayed gratification (yet) won't misinterpret due to false definitions instilled in their past. >When you try to make something into something else in order to make it more pleasant, that is a form of a story in the head. It will work for awhile until it doesn't. The whole point of mindulfness meditation is awakening to what is, not what you wish things are. Okay, why are you responding to my comment with this? Did I somehow contradict this notion? >It doesn't matter whether you are doing something you think is pleasant or not, dukkha is present there. Strain and tension contains pain. Dukkha is only there when someone is not mindful. Ironically, by being present to the actual amount of pain, the dukkha lessens: Strain and tension don't necessarily contain pain. During physical exercise the body releases a flood of endorphins (ie natural painkillers) that numb it. I believe I've heard meditation does something similar. I can think of numerous other examples of strain that doesn't contain pain - working really hard to solve a puzzle, learning a new skill, or completing a really difficult project. Flow state is when we have high strain and tension but a high sense of efficacy and well-being. >Learned helplessness is a story in the head. There are methods to dissolve and deconstruct that which I will not mention here. When you replace that story with a different story, you are creating the conditions for your next disappointment. Real power and freedom comes from releasing the stories that prop up your identity. beliefs are just descriptions about reality that can be either true or false, but we can indeed be fooled by false beliefs or become dependent on true ones which may change in the future. I agree that equanimity is a great virtue which can be cultivated through regular meditation. you don't have to overcomplicate something by alluding to some mysterious methods which you know but won't explain. you can break down false beliefs through mindfulness which is the technique behind cognitive behavioral therapy. there is nothing wrong with forming new positive beliefs as long as they are accurate and you understand that reality is always changing and they may become false in the future. you must maintain a regular practice of mindfulness if you want to minimize false beliefs. >If we don't have to do anything, then what is the point of living and struggling? There's no objective reason to live and struggle floating out in reality. They are impulses generated within human beings through genetic, internal (ie mental/cyclical), and environmental influences. If you don't have them, you can try to cultivate them, if you don't believing that you "have to" do things is a very hollow substitute. >If you lose your motivation for living and struggling, then what happens when you really need to make it through? You find it or you die. This is self-evident, if this wasn't true, then suicides wouldn't happen. You need to find a strong, positive, inner source of this motivation and remain vigilant once you do or you will find half-ways to slowly kill yourself - purposely getting in unhealthy relationships, acquiring addictions or bad health habits, or overworking yourself. >This was the paradox that was resolved for me with non-dual Shaiva Tantra. I have no idea what paradox you're referring to. I'm not seeing one here. If you think that we either objectively have to do things or there's no point in living and struggling, that sounds like a pretty dualist concept to me. I have no idea what the "shaiva tantra" is and honestly I think it's best for those trying to find a way out of a dark place, as well as those trying to understand these life principles, to abandon these cryptic terms and speak simply or using well-established modern language. Isn't the point of communication to transmit knowledge? You're doing a poor job when you use obscure terms without defining them.