4 ms·

I've argued this many times when "socialization" comes up. So, other undisciplined brats should teach my kids how to behave in society? It's my opinion that ch

by RUG3Y 10y ago

I've argued this many times when "socialization" comes up. So, other undisciplined brats should teach my kids how to behave in society? It's my opinion that children learn much more from their time with adults. It's likely that there's another aspect to the "Lord of the Flies" effect - Children are being socialized by other savages at school all day, then they come home and are virtually ignored by mommy and daddy.

jbigelow76 10y ago
>I've argued this many times when "socialization" comes up. So, other undisciplined brats should teach my kids how to behave in society? To every other parent out there, your little snowflake, is the undisciplined brat that is ruining their kid. It's the universal law of parenting.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  It's far from a universal law, and while I appreciate the judgement you've passed on my snowflakes, I'm not easy on them and I'm very involved in their development, something that many of their peers don't seem to have.
  - doomtop 10y ago
    I don't think they were passing any specific judgement on your snowflakes, but rather just saying it's all relative. If you look at the tone and language of your comments, there is quite a bit of detectable judgement and condescension. I'm sure your kids have great parent(s) who are involved, but I'm not sure you recognize the privilege your family enjoys. I think this point-of-view is troubling when looking at how we might approach the real problems facing society re: children, education, etc.
  - jbigelow76 10y ago
    "something that many of their peers don't seem to have." There you go passing judgement just like I did, assuming that isolated events you may see in interactions between your kid and other kids is indicative of them being raised in an environment lacking discipline or involvement.
    - RUG3Y 10y ago
      It's not really a huge secret that there are lots of families out there where the parents aren't very involved in their children's lives. I'm not passing judgement on those children at all, I'm simply making the point that maybe I should be as proactive as possible in shaping my children's attitudes and responses to social situations, rather than counting on other children at school to "socialize" them. I remember what it was like to be a kid in school, which is why the "Lord of the Flies" reference rang a bell with me. Children are capable of horrific savagery, it's our job as parents to guide them as best we can in the right direction.
      - doomtop 10y ago
        I've already responded to your previous comments; so I hope it doesn't feel like I'm trying to target you, because you're not the only one who feels the way you do and I can understand where your perspective comes from, but I honestly don't see how you can describe other people's children as "undisciplined brats" and "savages" and then turn around say, "I'm not passing judgement on those children at all".
        RUG3Y 10y ago
        I don't feel singled out. I guess I'm being cynical and hyperbolic. To clarify, without guidance, my own children are often savages and undisciplined brats as well. I'm sorry if you don't like my strong language. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't see children learning good behavior from one another very often, as they get older and learn more things, I assume that changes. I believe that parents need to be very active in their child's development to ensure that they're learning what they need to. I've seen and met other parents who take the attitude that just sending their kids to school and abdicating their responsibility for their child's development is ok and that their kid will somehow magically learn how to function in society. I admit that it's anecdotal, but I find that people my age who grew up under this lazy parenting model seem to be pretty incapable at life in general. Regardless, I enjoy the conversation. I feel like using the word "savage", while it makes sense to me, may have distracted from the point I was trying to make. I have a pretty cynical view of human nature in general.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Same thing every other parent says.
  - noxToken 10y ago
    Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but I don't understand where this high and mighty tone of yours comes from. You keep making these sweeping generalizations about kids at large. It's as if you're saying that the current generation of children are these unbounded savages (hyperbole). Maybe you have an oddly over-representation of children with uninvolved parents or latchkey kids. Either way, it's hypocritical for you to pass such harsh judgement of other parents while snapping at GP in the same breath.
- emiliobumachar 10y ago
  The point is that all the snowflakes/undisciplined brats might be worse off learning from each other.
  - jbigelow76 10y ago
    If a child only learns from other children or only learns from adults I would think that kid is pretty well screwed. The problem with the Lord of the Flies analogy is that there is no way to totally remove adult interaction from a child's development (even if it's a less optimal interaction say with a case worker instead of a parent or teacher), so there never is this Lord of the Flies scenario that's being discussed.
    - cicero 10y ago
      The tendency is there even if it doesn't go as far as Lord of the Flies. I work at a boys school for gifted students. They are all smart and they are usually well behaved as individuals, but if they get in an unsupervised group, things can go badly rather quickly. That is why we do our best to make sure they are never unsupervised.
- bigtunacan 10y ago
  I set a high bar for my kids and I don't treat them like "little snowflakes". I interact with them on a regular basis and I set strong boundaries that come with consequences & rewards. I explain the way the world works (as best as I understand it) from a very young age. EVERY child is unique and so there is no one way fits all to raising well-behaved and well-socialized children, so I adapt. I stay engaged with teachers at school and follow up when something goes wrong. Teachers are often afraid to tell parents "bad things" about their child because so many parents are defensive and think their child can do no wrong. I try to recognize my children's shortcoming so that I can help then to improve. When I first meet with a teacher I tell them this and that I truly want to hear about issues. I will tell the teacher, "In the past we have seen that X is an issue for him/her and s/he is working on improving on that area. If this or any other issues comes up let me know right away so we can correct it at home before it gets worse." I have found that this is more effective than just saying I want their feedback as teachers often think that is just lip service. I set strict boundaries and rules and then I consistently enforce them. Often times I explain why a rule is there, but sometimes I just say, "I have my reasons." I find that in general children are more compliant with rules when they understand the reasoning, but the reasons behind some rules are too complicated for children to understand. Apparently, these things work as my children are all high achievers and very well behaved compared to the majority of children I encounter on a daily basis. Other parents often ask me what is the trick to having such well-behaved kids. My youngest daughter was a real handful the first couple of years in school and my wife and I had to put in a lot of work to change her behavior. Things that worked for the first two children had zero impact on her. Eventually, we figured it out. One of the most interesting things was that she had the same teacher for 1st grade and 2nd grade due to some re-org that happened at the elementary school. Out of the blue one night I received a phone call from her teacher (while she was in 2nd grade); when I answered the phone I assumed the teacher was calling to tell me there had been some sort of incident. Instead the teacher said how she just wanted to call to say what a pleasure it was having her in class and how she didn't know what we had been doing, but that it was amazing how well behaved she was. So to sum up; if you are going to have kids then step up and be a parent.
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    I like your approach. Thanks for taking the time to post.

by RUG3Y 10y ago

jbigelow76 10y ago

>I've argued this many times when "socialization" comes up. So, other undisciplined brats should teach my kids how to behave in society? To every other parent out there, your little snowflake, is the undisciplined brat that is ruining their kid. It's the universal law of parenting.

RUG3Y 10y ago
It's far from a universal law, and while I appreciate the judgement you've passed on my snowflakes, I'm not easy on them and I'm very involved in their development, something that many of their peers don't seem to have.
- doomtop 10y ago
  I don't think they were passing any specific judgement on your snowflakes, but rather just saying it's all relative. If you look at the tone and language of your comments, there is quite a bit of detectable judgement and condescension. I'm sure your kids have great parent(s) who are involved, but I'm not sure you recognize the privilege your family enjoys. I think this point-of-view is troubling when looking at how we might approach the real problems facing society re: children, education, etc.
- jbigelow76 10y ago
  "something that many of their peers don't seem to have." There you go passing judgement just like I did, assuming that isolated events you may see in interactions between your kid and other kids is indicative of them being raised in an environment lacking discipline or involvement.
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    It's not really a huge secret that there are lots of families out there where the parents aren't very involved in their children's lives. I'm not passing judgement on those children at all, I'm simply making the point that maybe I should be as proactive as possible in shaping my children's attitudes and responses to social situations, rather than counting on other children at school to "socialize" them. I remember what it was like to be a kid in school, which is why the "Lord of the Flies" reference rang a bell with me. Children are capable of horrific savagery, it's our job as parents to guide them as best we can in the right direction.
    - doomtop 10y ago
      I've already responded to your previous comments; so I hope it doesn't feel like I'm trying to target you, because you're not the only one who feels the way you do and I can understand where your perspective comes from, but I honestly don't see how you can describe other people's children as "undisciplined brats" and "savages" and then turn around say, "I'm not passing judgement on those children at all".
      - RUG3Y 10y ago
        I don't feel singled out. I guess I'm being cynical and hyperbolic. To clarify, without guidance, my own children are often savages and undisciplined brats as well. I'm sorry if you don't like my strong language. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't see children learning good behavior from one another very often, as they get older and learn more things, I assume that changes. I believe that parents need to be very active in their child's development to ensure that they're learning what they need to. I've seen and met other parents who take the attitude that just sending their kids to school and abdicating their responsibility for their child's development is ok and that their kid will somehow magically learn how to function in society. I admit that it's anecdotal, but I find that people my age who grew up under this lazy parenting model seem to be pretty incapable at life in general. Regardless, I enjoy the conversation. I feel like using the word "savage", while it makes sense to me, may have distracted from the point I was trying to make. I have a pretty cynical view of human nature in general.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Same thing every other parent says.
- noxToken 10y ago
  Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but I don't understand where this high and mighty tone of yours comes from. You keep making these sweeping generalizations about kids at large. It's as if you're saying that the current generation of children are these unbounded savages (hyperbole). Maybe you have an oddly over-representation of children with uninvolved parents or latchkey kids. Either way, it's hypocritical for you to pass such harsh judgement of other parents while snapping at GP in the same breath.
emiliobumachar 10y ago
The point is that all the snowflakes/undisciplined brats might be worse off learning from each other.
- jbigelow76 10y ago
  If a child only learns from other children or only learns from adults I would think that kid is pretty well screwed. The problem with the Lord of the Flies analogy is that there is no way to totally remove adult interaction from a child's development (even if it's a less optimal interaction say with a case worker instead of a parent or teacher), so there never is this Lord of the Flies scenario that's being discussed.
  - cicero 10y ago
    The tendency is there even if it doesn't go as far as Lord of the Flies. I work at a boys school for gifted students. They are all smart and they are usually well behaved as individuals, but if they get in an unsupervised group, things can go badly rather quickly. That is why we do our best to make sure they are never unsupervised.
bigtunacan 10y ago
I set a high bar for my kids and I don't treat them like "little snowflakes". I interact with them on a regular basis and I set strong boundaries that come with consequences & rewards. I explain the way the world works (as best as I understand it) from a very young age. EVERY child is unique and so there is no one way fits all to raising well-behaved and well-socialized children, so I adapt. I stay engaged with teachers at school and follow up when something goes wrong. Teachers are often afraid to tell parents "bad things" about their child because so many parents are defensive and think their child can do no wrong. I try to recognize my children's shortcoming so that I can help then to improve. When I first meet with a teacher I tell them this and that I truly want to hear about issues. I will tell the teacher, "In the past we have seen that X is an issue for him/her and s/he is working on improving on that area. If this or any other issues comes up let me know right away so we can correct it at home before it gets worse." I have found that this is more effective than just saying I want their feedback as teachers often think that is just lip service. I set strict boundaries and rules and then I consistently enforce them. Often times I explain why a rule is there, but sometimes I just say, "I have my reasons." I find that in general children are more compliant with rules when they understand the reasoning, but the reasons behind some rules are too complicated for children to understand. Apparently, these things work as my children are all high achievers and very well behaved compared to the majority of children I encounter on a daily basis. Other parents often ask me what is the trick to having such well-behaved kids. My youngest daughter was a real handful the first couple of years in school and my wife and I had to put in a lot of work to change her behavior. Things that worked for the first two children had zero impact on her. Eventually, we figured it out. One of the most interesting things was that she had the same teacher for 1st grade and 2nd grade due to some re-org that happened at the elementary school. Out of the blue one night I received a phone call from her teacher (while she was in 2nd grade); when I answered the phone I assumed the teacher was calling to tell me there had been some sort of incident. Instead the teacher said how she just wanted to call to say what a pleasure it was having her in class and how she didn't know what we had been doing, but that it was amazing how well behaved she was. So to sum up; if you are going to have kids then step up and be a parent.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  I like your approach. Thanks for taking the time to post.