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> Modern schools seem to be a terrible environment to socialize kids, with things like bulling, weapons, drugs, sexting, sex Look, I'm no fan of modern schooli

> Modern schools seem to be a terrible environment to socialize kids, with things like bulling, weapons, drugs, sexting, sex Look, I'm no fan of modern schooling (public or private), but this is pretty ridiculous. Bullying: I was bullied far more by the neighborhood kids than anyone at school. YMMV of course, but that's exactly the point -- kids are kids, and leaving the school building doesn't change that. Blaming school missing the point. Also, RE: churches, they're one of the few widespread institution where it's not abnormal for adults to gather and condemn people who are different (LGBT, non-sexually-repressed). It's just that churches have a much better grasp on socially appropriate rhetoric (not "faggot!" but "sinful lifestyle", not "slut!" but "you must save yourself for marriage". It's more subtle, but the intended effect is the same: otherizing people who are different from or disagree with the in-group and shaming them into conformance). If your child is gay, the local church youth group is very likely one of the most intense bullying experiences that child will ever experience. Sex: Teenagers are going to know and think about sex. Consider e.g. religious events for adolescents, which often explicitly discuss sex in a very moralizing way. In fact, IMO, having attended one, American conservative christian youth groups are one of the least healthy places to learn about sexuality. Weapons: I've been in a lot of schools, and in every single one of them, anything as much as a pocket knife was a huge deal. Drugs: Again, far more likely to encounter these hanging out with the neighborhood kids than in the (incredibly risky) setting of a modern school. Even the more die hard pot heads are rarely stupid enough to bring their drugs to school. So if "bullying, sex, drugs, and weapons" were my greatest fears, I'd probably lock my kids in school 24/7 and never let them play in the neighborhood without adult supervision. >...I don't think children will lose much socializing without schools. I don't think children necessarily have to lose much socializing without schools. But the anecdotal evidence I have suggests that providing sufficient socialization is much harder than it sounds.

vivekd 10y ago
what school did you go to - drugs and weapons were everywhere in my school. I bought pot off my classmates.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  Wouldn't these same classmates also be likely to participate in extracurricular sports, attend religious events, etc? If drugs were everywhere in school, the kids aren't leaving them in lockers when they go home, and it's not like there's a big tall wall that separates these alleged weapon-smuggling drug dealers from the "good kids" on the home-schooled side either.
  - vivekd 10y ago
    Because church groups and extracurricular sports teams and home schools all have a stake in protecting the kids. School shootings, stabbings and drug dealings happen every day, and no one gets fired, no one gets in trouble, no one gets sued. It is very different with other groups like churches or sports teams. If any other organization had anywhere near the track record for deaths and serious injuries and addictions that government run schools had with our children, it would be shut down in no time.
    - pavel_lishin 10y ago
      Who do you expect to get fired for a school shooting? And what do you mean, no one gets sued? That's flat-out not true. http://www.heraldnet.com/news/teacher-wants-out-of-marysville-pilchuck-shooting-lawsuit/ http://www.heraldnet.com/news/teacher-wants-out-of-marysvill... http://www.whio.com/news/crime--law/350k-lawsuit-filed-madison-school-shooting/LBQs9ZvxA1YVOyydXfcMJO/ http://www.whio.com/news/crime--law/350k-lawsuit-filed-madis... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/families-washington-school-shooting-victims-sue-article-1.2490878 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/families-washington...
      - vivekd 10y ago
        Only one of those incidents is of a lawsuit against a teacher, the other two incidents are of a lawsuit against the families. And there is a very good reason for this. There is state immunity granted to teachers and schools in that they cannot be sued for grossly negligent supervision that allows a stream of drugs, guns, knives and sex to flow into children under their care. You can see it mentioned in your first article: >her attorneys cite a state law that gives school districts and their employees immunity from liability if they make a good faith effort to report threats of violence. so even if a student threatens violence, as long as the teacher reports it, there will no liability to her or the school even if they didn't do anything to stop the violence or supervise the children adequately. This statute is actually more lenient than other areas where it is complete immunity. Now this immunity is limited to state actors and does not apply to private schools, churches or sports teams. And I believe that without these protections public schools would have been sued out of existence long ago for the horrible things constantly happening to children under their care.
RUG3Y 10y ago
Shootings, stabbings, ass-kickings and all kinds of other shenanigans occurred at my high school. At least in the neighborhood, I can choose to stay home if I wish.
- throwaway729 10y ago
  > At least in the neighborhood, I can choose to stay home if I wish. But then we're right back to the socialization problem that started this thread.
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    I understand what you're saying but hey, staying home is better than having the shit kicked out of me.
sporkenfang 10y ago
> If your child is gay, the local church youth group is very likely one of the most intense bullying experiences that child will ever experience. Not only that, but if your child isn't of the inclination to be religious, it will also be a painful experience. Questioning the why behind and benefits of the religious faith of the group leaders and other youth group participants is a great way to be bullied and not only that, told you're wrong for thinking logically. That, plus the associated moralizing (i.e, "there is only one way, the right way, to be") I think are pretty damaging for kids. Societally we are accepting of many more ways than the one proscribed by many churches. Being of one sexuality or another, or one morality or another, as long as you respect and help your fellow human beings when they are in need, should not matter. I wouldn't expose my kid to anything saying otherwise if I could help it.

vivekd 10y ago

what school did you go to - drugs and weapons were everywhere in my school. I bought pot off my classmates.

pavel_lishin 10y ago
Wouldn't these same classmates also be likely to participate in extracurricular sports, attend religious events, etc? If drugs were everywhere in school, the kids aren't leaving them in lockers when they go home, and it's not like there's a big tall wall that separates these alleged weapon-smuggling drug dealers from the "good kids" on the home-schooled side either.
- vivekd 10y ago
  Because church groups and extracurricular sports teams and home schools all have a stake in protecting the kids. School shootings, stabbings and drug dealings happen every day, and no one gets fired, no one gets in trouble, no one gets sued. It is very different with other groups like churches or sports teams. If any other organization had anywhere near the track record for deaths and serious injuries and addictions that government run schools had with our children, it would be shut down in no time.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    Who do you expect to get fired for a school shooting? And what do you mean, no one gets sued? That's flat-out not true. http://www.heraldnet.com/news/teacher-wants-out-of-marysville-pilchuck-shooting-lawsuit/ http://www.heraldnet.com/news/teacher-wants-out-of-marysvill... http://www.whio.com/news/crime--law/350k-lawsuit-filed-madison-school-shooting/LBQs9ZvxA1YVOyydXfcMJO/ http://www.whio.com/news/crime--law/350k-lawsuit-filed-madis... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/families-washington-school-shooting-victims-sue-article-1.2490878 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/families-washington...
    - vivekd 10y ago
      Only one of those incidents is of a lawsuit against a teacher, the other two incidents are of a lawsuit against the families. And there is a very good reason for this. There is state immunity granted to teachers and schools in that they cannot be sued for grossly negligent supervision that allows a stream of drugs, guns, knives and sex to flow into children under their care. You can see it mentioned in your first article: >her attorneys cite a state law that gives school districts and their employees immunity from liability if they make a good faith effort to report threats of violence. so even if a student threatens violence, as long as the teacher reports it, there will no liability to her or the school even if they didn't do anything to stop the violence or supervise the children adequately. This statute is actually more lenient than other areas where it is complete immunity. Now this immunity is limited to state actors and does not apply to private schools, churches or sports teams. And I believe that without these protections public schools would have been sued out of existence long ago for the horrible things constantly happening to children under their care.

RUG3Y 10y ago

Shootings, stabbings, ass-kickings and all kinds of other shenanigans occurred at my high school. At least in the neighborhood, I can choose to stay home if I wish.

throwaway729 10y ago
> At least in the neighborhood, I can choose to stay home if I wish. But then we're right back to the socialization problem that started this thread.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  I understand what you're saying but hey, staying home is better than having the shit kicked out of me.

sporkenfang 10y ago

> If your child is gay, the local church youth group is very likely one of the most intense bullying experiences that child will ever experience. Not only that, but if your child isn't of the inclination to be religious, it will also be a painful experience. Questioning the why behind and benefits of the religious faith of the group leaders and other youth group participants is a great way to be bullied and not only that, told you're wrong for thinking logically. That, plus the associated moralizing (i.e, "there is only one way, the right way, to be") I think are pretty damaging for kids. Societally we are accepting of many more ways than the one proscribed by many churches. Being of one sexuality or another, or one morality or another, as long as you respect and help your fellow human beings when they are in need, should not matter. I wouldn't expose my kid to anything saying otherwise if I could help it.