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But wouldn't trying to solve some of these problems make more sense than a turn toward homeschooling? Maybe get more mature, self-actualized people involved in

by doomtop 10y ago

But wouldn't trying to solve some of these problems make more sense than a turn toward homeschooling? Maybe get more mature, self-actualized people involved in the lives of all children, not just the privileged ones? I don't see how promoting homeschooling as the alternative to schools is a good solution here. Also, a turn toward homeschooling can be a total wildcard based on the values and intent of the individual parents. The movie Dogtooth[1] is somewhat relevant here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtooth_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtooth_(film)

phd514 10y ago
You're treading a dangerous path when you call out the values and intents of individual parents as factors in deciding when homeschooling is or is not beneficial. Of course that is true, but whom do you propose to empower to decide what values and intents are acceptable?
- doomtop 10y ago
  Well, that's sort of my point. I don't think there is a good solution to empower some entity to decide what values and intents are acceptable. But I don't think the values and intents of parents keeping their kids at home for schooling are always acceptable, which is emphasized in an exaggerated way in the Dogtooth film. I'm sure in some cases homeschooling could be beneficial and "better" for an individual child than the existing school system. I just think mistaking homeschooling as an "alternative" to trying to solve problems of the school system is its own dangerous path.
  - et1337 10y ago
    I was homeschooled by a typical unqualified mom who "brainwashed" us with the crazy anti-evolution stuff everyone is so terrified of. That one tiny topic doesn't invalidate your entire education. Most people couldn't tell you the first thing about evolution anyway. She always worried that her inability to teach was ruining us. My dad said her teaching was not that important; her main job was just to be someone with a pulse who cared about us to the exclusion of all else. And it worked, I entered honors engineering at age 16. Someone has to decide what the kid learns. It might as well be someone who has a better chance of actually caring about them.
    - doomtop 10y ago
      > Someone has to decide what the kid learns. It might as well be someone who has a better chance of actually caring about them. This is a salient point. But I don't think the answer is "parents homeschooling" which can only ever address privileged individuals. Might there be some way we can get more people involved in the the lives of all children that fit the description of "someone who has a better chance of actually caring about them"? That's the problem I believe homeschool ignores.
      - TrevorJ 10y ago
        >I don't think the answer is "parents homeschooling" which can only ever address privileged individuals. My father became disabled when I was 8 or 9 and could no longer work. There were years when our christmas tree was a potted plant and our presents were cereal boxtop prizes. Yet I was able to be educated at home. If you are interested in allowing more people to have the privilege of home schooling, then perhaps we should examine the inequity of home schooling parents being taxed for public educations there children are not using?
  - TrevorJ 10y ago
    Why is it morally acceptable for the state to, by default raise children? "Sometimes people do it wrong when left to themselves" is not a sufficient affirmative moral argument.
TrevorJ 10y ago
From a historical perspective, the idea that the state should be primarily responsible for the rearing and education of children is a new, and radical idea. For the vast majority of human history, children were equipped with the skills for life by their parents. I point this out because the premise of your argument assumes that state run public education is the default solution, and that home, or 'alternative' schooling is in the position of needing to prove why it is superior, when in fact, the situation is exactly reversed. It is public education which needs to prove empirically, why it is intrinsically better than the traditional forms of education.
- doomtop 10y ago
  Sure, but would you agree that state run public education is the current default solution, in countries like Australia, the U.S., etc.? Your point is accurate re: historical perspective, but don't you think you have to take that in context? From a historical perspective, children have been brutally exploited, especially from the poor and middle-class.
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    The fact that I'm here in 2016 having to defend the 1870s is mind blowing to me. And yet, through out contemporary American politics, it's basically a widespread effort to repeal the 20th Century.
    - doomtop 10y ago
      I think there might be parallels here to many other political issues where income inequality is involved.
      - jonathankoren 10y ago
        It's also blatant partisan politics. See arguments to repeal the 17th Amendment.
    - pnathan 10y ago
xiaoma 10y ago
But the entire problem is that millions of children are being forced into a regiment of school based on the Prussian system (which also pioneered goose stepping), then segregated by age rather than ability and indoctrinated in whatever it is that politicians of the day compromise on. Students waste thousands of hours learning far less than they could, they endure harsh psychological trauma in dysfunctional settings and then enter the job market with cookie-cutter skillsets. I don't see how promoting organizational improvements as an alternative to educational freedoms is a good solution here. In the industrial era when the system started, there was a somewhat defensible position that a conformist generation of young people indoctrinated with the same beliefs and an inclination to defer to authority was exactly what the factories needed. That era has passed. Education is priceless, but schooling and its associated credentialism is arguably the worst market distortion of the past century. The former New York Teacher of the Year wrote a book on this topic: https://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Anniversary/dp/0865714487 https://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-An...
- NoGravitas 10y ago
  All this. I think community-based (public) education is the way to go, and I don't like having to homeschool. But currently, even good public schools (and non-alternative private schools) are prisons. We need somehow to scale up (or rather, out) alternative schools and publicly fund them.

by doomtop 10y ago

phd514 10y ago

You're treading a dangerous path when you call out the values and intents of individual parents as factors in deciding when homeschooling is or is not beneficial. Of course that is true, but whom do you propose to empower to decide what values and intents are acceptable?

doomtop 10y ago
Well, that's sort of my point. I don't think there is a good solution to empower some entity to decide what values and intents are acceptable. But I don't think the values and intents of parents keeping their kids at home for schooling are always acceptable, which is emphasized in an exaggerated way in the Dogtooth film. I'm sure in some cases homeschooling could be beneficial and "better" for an individual child than the existing school system. I just think mistaking homeschooling as an "alternative" to trying to solve problems of the school system is its own dangerous path.
- et1337 10y ago
  I was homeschooled by a typical unqualified mom who "brainwashed" us with the crazy anti-evolution stuff everyone is so terrified of. That one tiny topic doesn't invalidate your entire education. Most people couldn't tell you the first thing about evolution anyway. She always worried that her inability to teach was ruining us. My dad said her teaching was not that important; her main job was just to be someone with a pulse who cared about us to the exclusion of all else. And it worked, I entered honors engineering at age 16. Someone has to decide what the kid learns. It might as well be someone who has a better chance of actually caring about them.
  - doomtop 10y ago
    > Someone has to decide what the kid learns. It might as well be someone who has a better chance of actually caring about them. This is a salient point. But I don't think the answer is "parents homeschooling" which can only ever address privileged individuals. Might there be some way we can get more people involved in the the lives of all children that fit the description of "someone who has a better chance of actually caring about them"? That's the problem I believe homeschool ignores.
    - TrevorJ 10y ago
      >I don't think the answer is "parents homeschooling" which can only ever address privileged individuals. My father became disabled when I was 8 or 9 and could no longer work. There were years when our christmas tree was a potted plant and our presents were cereal boxtop prizes. Yet I was able to be educated at home. If you are interested in allowing more people to have the privilege of home schooling, then perhaps we should examine the inequity of home schooling parents being taxed for public educations there children are not using?
- TrevorJ 10y ago
  Why is it morally acceptable for the state to, by default raise children? "Sometimes people do it wrong when left to themselves" is not a sufficient affirmative moral argument.

TrevorJ 10y ago

From a historical perspective, the idea that the state should be primarily responsible for the rearing and education of children is a new, and radical idea. For the vast majority of human history, children were equipped with the skills for life by their parents. I point this out because the premise of your argument assumes that state run public education is the default solution, and that home, or 'alternative' schooling is in the position of needing to prove why it is superior, when in fact, the situation is exactly reversed. It is public education which needs to prove empirically, why it is intrinsically better than the traditional forms of education.

doomtop 10y ago
Sure, but would you agree that state run public education is the current default solution, in countries like Australia, the U.S., etc.? Your point is accurate re: historical perspective, but don't you think you have to take that in context? From a historical perspective, children have been brutally exploited, especially from the poor and middle-class.
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  The fact that I'm here in 2016 having to defend the 1870s is mind blowing to me. And yet, through out contemporary American politics, it's basically a widespread effort to repeal the 20th Century.
  - doomtop 10y ago
    I think there might be parallels here to many other political issues where income inequality is involved.
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      It's also blatant partisan politics. See arguments to repeal the 17th Amendment.
  - pnathan 10y ago

xiaoma 10y ago

But the entire problem is that millions of children are being forced into a regiment of school based on the Prussian system (which also pioneered goose stepping), then segregated by age rather than ability and indoctrinated in whatever it is that politicians of the day compromise on. Students waste thousands of hours learning far less than they could, they endure harsh psychological trauma in dysfunctional settings and then enter the job market with cookie-cutter skillsets. I don't see how promoting organizational improvements as an alternative to educational freedoms is a good solution here. In the industrial era when the system started, there was a somewhat defensible position that a conformist generation of young people indoctrinated with the same beliefs and an inclination to defer to authority was exactly what the factories needed. That era has passed. Education is priceless, but schooling and its associated credentialism is arguably the worst market distortion of the past century. The former New York Teacher of the Year wrote a book on this topic: https://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Anniversary/dp/0865714487 https://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-An...

NoGravitas 10y ago
All this. I think community-based (public) education is the way to go, and I don't like having to homeschool. But currently, even good public schools (and non-alternative private schools) are prisons. We need somehow to scale up (or rather, out) alternative schools and publicly fund them.