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People forget two things when they quote Orwell as evidence for perma-cynicism: 1) Orwell as himself a democratic socialist, writing on behalf of democratic so

People forget two things when they quote Orwell as evidence for perma-cynicism: 1) Orwell as himself a democratic socialist, writing on behalf of democratic socialism. 2) The level of stratification between high, middle, and low varies massively across time and place. More egalitarian societies have actually existed.

arethuza 10y ago
For what it's worth I probably have very similar political views to Orwell - my reaction wasn't "perma-cynicism" but deep skepticism that a violent revolution that calls for "culling" and capital punishment would actually make things any better for the average person - just replacing one ruling class with another.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  Well, to go back to cynicism for a moment, I think it partially depends on whether the ruling class has the basic sanity to relinquish enough of their power nonviolently that life for the masses can return to a tolerable norm. The French Revolution did not merely happen because inequality was too severe, but because of the "let them eat cake" attitude on the part of the elite. The English, in contrast, were once-upon-a-time willing to reform their system to reduce inequality rather than suffer yet another civil war.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    I'd have said that the best example of a reform in the UK system was the post-war Attlee government that introduced the NHS. However, that required a desire for change that was driven by the "total war" exertions of WW2.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't "animal farm" by Orwell? What happens to the pigs in the end? The farm seems much happier without them..
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >What happens to the pigs in the end? The farm seems much happier without them.. If I recall correctly, they turn themselves into equivalents to humans (the bourgeoisie), invite the humans over for a big banquet, and gloat over their exploitation of the other animals.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      I only saw the cartoon :-/

arethuza 10y ago

For what it's worth I probably have very similar political views to Orwell - my reaction wasn't "perma-cynicism" but deep skepticism that a violent revolution that calls for "culling" and capital punishment would actually make things any better for the average person - just replacing one ruling class with another.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
Well, to go back to cynicism for a moment, I think it partially depends on whether the ruling class has the basic sanity to relinquish enough of their power nonviolently that life for the masses can return to a tolerable norm. The French Revolution did not merely happen because inequality was too severe, but because of the "let them eat cake" attitude on the part of the elite. The English, in contrast, were once-upon-a-time willing to reform their system to reduce inequality rather than suffer yet another civil war.
- arethuza 10y ago
  I'd have said that the best example of a reform in the UK system was the post-war Attlee government that introduced the NHS. However, that required a desire for change that was driven by the "total war" exertions of WW2.
Chris2048 10y ago
Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't "animal farm" by Orwell? What happens to the pigs in the end? The farm seems much happier without them..
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >What happens to the pigs in the end? The farm seems much happier without them.. If I recall correctly, they turn themselves into equivalents to humans (the bourgeoisie), invite the humans over for a big banquet, and gloat over their exploitation of the other animals.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    I only saw the cartoon :-/