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I will never seriously consider using php for any new project until they clean up their standard library API, but that will probably never happen (python 3 bei

I will never seriously consider using php for any new project until they clean up their standard library API, but that will probably never happen (python 3 being a good example of what happens when you drop backwards compat in a major way). Even then, stdio==socket and bloated syntax might still weight it down too much. I started my career with PHP, it really is a bummer that it seems destined for the language graveyard

gog 10y ago
You can find a thing you don't like in any language. Saying PHP is destined for the "language graveyard" is just spreading FUD around a language that made miraculous improvements in a last couple of years. Both in terms of speed and language features. Modern PHP is a joy to work with.
- allan_s 10y ago
  yes especially if you take in account that the active support for php5.6 will end in less than a month, and secury patches in 2 years (which is not that long in a career time), it will be more and more feasible to have your work "zen garden" full php7 if you want.
- rbanffy 10y ago
  > Modern PHP is a joy to work with. Would you clarify that? I've not followed PHPs evolution but it never struck me as a particularly notable language except for the fact it used to be the easiest/cheapest to deploy apps for.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    It gotten tons of syntactic improvements and bells and whistles after version 5. It got a proper, rewritten, parser. It got a free-double-the-speed update for almost all working code in version 7. It got a full featured package manager (composer). It got many next-generation frameworks and libs that don't fall prey to the issues that plagued early PHP codebases. It got the "share nothing" model correctly from the beginning. It's still the easiest and cheapest to deploy, and has tons of extensions for everything. There's active work for a JIT and async (a la Node/Tornado etc) hooks.
    - dingdingdang 10y ago
      Plus response times are vastly improved on widely deployed things such as Wordpress: https://www.cloudways.com/blog/wordpress-on-php-7-performance-benchmarks-upgrade-guide/ https://www.cloudways.com/blog/wordpress-on-php-7-performanc...
      - chris_wot 10y ago
        I've recently started looking at Symfony. Pretty impressive really!
        vesak 10y ago
        Be wary of Symfony if you need high performance and cannot use caching. Its runtime is not fast.
        tyingq 10y ago
        Slim is lightweight, and somewhat similar to Flask or Bottle from the Python world: https://www.slimframework.com/ https://www.slimframework.com/ You can also lighten Symfony's footprint: http://symfony.com/blog/new-in-symfony-2-8-symfony-as-a-microframework http://symfony.com/blog/new-in-symfony-2-8-symfony-as-a-micr...
    - babyrainbow 10y ago
      >It got a proper, rewritten, parser. Great. Are you really telling that one of the selling point of the language is that it got a "proper" parser, In it's 7th iteration and 20 years later? What. A. Joke. EDIT: And downvoted. Classic Php apologist response..
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >And downvoted. Classic Php apologist response.. For one, I just saw your comment, so didn't downvote you when you wrote that. Others did. That said, "classic X apologist" is beyond juvenile for my tastes, so any downvotes I'd call deserved. Yes a language can get a proper parser "in it's 7th iteration and 20 years later" and still be good for some use cases and a success. In fact, the mere fact that it got to its 7th iteration and had a huge following despite not having a proper parser might point you to the fact that it should have gotten some other things very right to compensate. But that would require thinking, instead of a knee jerk reaction and a general assumption that everybody using it is stupid and you are the clever one.
naranha 10y ago
I agree OOP PHP is way to bloated for a dynamic language. Did they have to copy Java? I feel like PHP5+ was made by Jetbrains to sell their overpriced Web IDE solutions.
- alexbilbie 10y ago
  Could you explain what is bloated about OOP PHP?
  - naranha 10y ago
    When I write Javascript I don't feel like I need an IDE, but when I write PHP I need a good IDE for imports, getters and setters, stringly-typed frameworks like symfony, "doctrine" annotations. Java at least has some decent free IDEs that can generate the boilerplate that are by far superior to PHPStorm.
    - tobltobs 10y ago
      > When I write Javascript I don't feel like I need an IDE Isn't it more like that with Javascript an IDE can't help you much anyway.
      - olemartinorg 10y ago
        I agree completely. And to expand on that, TypeScript with an IDE is a joy to work with in comparison.
  - vesak 10y ago
    They looked at the state of Java OOP at the time and just dumped that in PHP without considering the rather large differences between those languages.
    - drivingmenuts 10y ago
      At the time, Java was the popular language and drove a lot of the thought behind language design. Go, Swift and others were not on the stage at the time.
greyman 10y ago
That will never happen, and it would be also a wrong thing to do, as the example of python shows. One of the main strengths of PHP is a low barrier of entry, which also includes things like you google how to do something, and what you googled indeed works. This is often true for PHP. Nothing was more frustrating as googling how to do something in Python, as a complete newbie, and then after fighting with what I have found, realizing that it is a Python 2 solution, and I choosed version 3, since that's what "elders" advised. Anyway, PHP is alive and well, people picks it for new projects too, and 7 was a big jump forward in the right direction, imho... it is just slowly getting better. People also thought that C++, my second favorite language, is also destined for graveyard...and, it isn't. :-)
- Achshar 10y ago
  What's the first one?
  - greyman 10y ago
    PHP 7. :-)
vesak 10y ago
>I started my career with PHP, it really is a bummer that it seems destined for the language graveyard I don't think you should worry about it. There are so many languages and organizations out there, majority of them better than PHP for nearly every task. Just ignore PHP and be happy! I'm trying to get there currently, but just need some more time to shed the pain of being in a rather obstinate PHP organization for a few years :)

gog 10y ago

You can find a thing you don't like in any language. Saying PHP is destined for the "language graveyard" is just spreading FUD around a language that made miraculous improvements in a last couple of years. Both in terms of speed and language features. Modern PHP is a joy to work with.

allan_s 10y ago
yes especially if you take in account that the active support for php5.6 will end in less than a month, and secury patches in 2 years (which is not that long in a career time), it will be more and more feasible to have your work "zen garden" full php7 if you want.
rbanffy 10y ago
> Modern PHP is a joy to work with. Would you clarify that? I've not followed PHPs evolution but it never struck me as a particularly notable language except for the fact it used to be the easiest/cheapest to deploy apps for.
- coldtea 10y ago
  It gotten tons of syntactic improvements and bells and whistles after version 5. It got a proper, rewritten, parser. It got a free-double-the-speed update for almost all working code in version 7. It got a full featured package manager (composer). It got many next-generation frameworks and libs that don't fall prey to the issues that plagued early PHP codebases. It got the "share nothing" model correctly from the beginning. It's still the easiest and cheapest to deploy, and has tons of extensions for everything. There's active work for a JIT and async (a la Node/Tornado etc) hooks.
  - dingdingdang 10y ago
    Plus response times are vastly improved on widely deployed things such as Wordpress: https://www.cloudways.com/blog/wordpress-on-php-7-performance-benchmarks-upgrade-guide/ https://www.cloudways.com/blog/wordpress-on-php-7-performanc...
    - chris_wot 10y ago
      I've recently started looking at Symfony. Pretty impressive really!
      - vesak 10y ago
        Be wary of Symfony if you need high performance and cannot use caching. Its runtime is not fast.
        tyingq 10y ago
        Slim is lightweight, and somewhat similar to Flask or Bottle from the Python world: https://www.slimframework.com/ https://www.slimframework.com/ You can also lighten Symfony's footprint: http://symfony.com/blog/new-in-symfony-2-8-symfony-as-a-microframework http://symfony.com/blog/new-in-symfony-2-8-symfony-as-a-micr...
  - babyrainbow 10y ago
    >It got a proper, rewritten, parser. Great. Are you really telling that one of the selling point of the language is that it got a "proper" parser, In it's 7th iteration and 20 years later? What. A. Joke. EDIT: And downvoted. Classic Php apologist response..
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >And downvoted. Classic Php apologist response.. For one, I just saw your comment, so didn't downvote you when you wrote that. Others did. That said, "classic X apologist" is beyond juvenile for my tastes, so any downvotes I'd call deserved. Yes a language can get a proper parser "in it's 7th iteration and 20 years later" and still be good for some use cases and a success. In fact, the mere fact that it got to its 7th iteration and had a huge following despite not having a proper parser might point you to the fact that it should have gotten some other things very right to compensate. But that would require thinking, instead of a knee jerk reaction and a general assumption that everybody using it is stupid and you are the clever one.

naranha 10y ago

I agree OOP PHP is way to bloated for a dynamic language. Did they have to copy Java? I feel like PHP5+ was made by Jetbrains to sell their overpriced Web IDE solutions.

alexbilbie 10y ago
Could you explain what is bloated about OOP PHP?
- naranha 10y ago
  When I write Javascript I don't feel like I need an IDE, but when I write PHP I need a good IDE for imports, getters and setters, stringly-typed frameworks like symfony, "doctrine" annotations. Java at least has some decent free IDEs that can generate the boilerplate that are by far superior to PHPStorm.
  - tobltobs 10y ago
    > When I write Javascript I don't feel like I need an IDE Isn't it more like that with Javascript an IDE can't help you much anyway.
    - olemartinorg 10y ago
      I agree completely. And to expand on that, TypeScript with an IDE is a joy to work with in comparison.
- vesak 10y ago
  They looked at the state of Java OOP at the time and just dumped that in PHP without considering the rather large differences between those languages.
  - drivingmenuts 10y ago
    At the time, Java was the popular language and drove a lot of the thought behind language design. Go, Swift and others were not on the stage at the time.

greyman 10y ago

That will never happen, and it would be also a wrong thing to do, as the example of python shows. One of the main strengths of PHP is a low barrier of entry, which also includes things like you google how to do something, and what you googled indeed works. This is often true for PHP. Nothing was more frustrating as googling how to do something in Python, as a complete newbie, and then after fighting with what I have found, realizing that it is a Python 2 solution, and I choosed version 3, since that's what "elders" advised. Anyway, PHP is alive and well, people picks it for new projects too, and 7 was a big jump forward in the right direction, imho... it is just slowly getting better. People also thought that C++, my second favorite language, is also destined for graveyard...and, it isn't. :-)

Achshar 10y ago
What's the first one?
- greyman 10y ago
  PHP 7. :-)

vesak 10y ago

>I started my career with PHP, it really is a bummer that it seems destined for the language graveyard I don't think you should worry about it. There are so many languages and organizations out there, majority of them better than PHP for nearly every task. Just ignore PHP and be happy! I'm trying to get there currently, but just need some more time to shed the pain of being in a rather obstinate PHP organization for a few years :)