8 ms·

So many opponents to homeschooling are talking about socialization as the key component of schooling. This seems misguided. Modern schools seem to be a terrib

by vivekd 10y ago

So many opponents to homeschooling are talking about socialization as the key component of schooling. This seems misguided. Modern schools seem to be a terrible environment to socialize kids, with things like bulling, weapons, drugs, sexting, sex. It seems like utter madness to want to have your kids "socialized" in an environment like that. There are much better places and environments for them to be around and socialize with other kids, for example extracurricular sports teams, religious events etc. I remember when I was a kid, I used to go out and play with the neighborhood kids, and it didn't matter that I didn't go to the same school as they did. There was a whole whole word of socializing that occurred before schools and I don't think children will lose much socializing without schools.

twblalock 10y ago
> It seems like utter madness to want to have your kids "socialized" in an environment like that. That's what society is. What's the point of socializing kids into anything other than the actual society?
- jstewartmobile 10y ago
  Look around at what people do, at what people believe. Look at 4chan! Look at reddit! The point is to subtract from all of that rather than add to it.
  - twblalock 10y ago
    The children will have to enter that society at some point. Would it be better to wait until they leave for college and let them experience all of that at the same time, for the first time?
    - jstewartmobile 10y ago
      I have yet to have a post-public-school (college, work, sales, relationships, you-name-it) experience that even comes close to the barbarity of my in-public-school experience. I've seen things on TV in that vicinity, but not in real life -- knock on wood! Of course, in my public school we had dudes who were fully-pubed driving their cars to the 6th grade, so kind of an extreme example.
    - sparrish 10y ago
      Yes. They'll be better equipped to rationally comprehend, question, and appreciate the world at that age. It's the same as any adult would better appreciate and understand travelling and experiencing other cultures more than a child.
- joeclark77 10y ago
  No, that's not what society is. Admittedly, public schools are doing their best to "shape" society with their own pathologies, but the behavior "socialized" in public schools still doesn't fly in the adult world. Most people spend their 20s unlearning that bizarre teenage socialization in the "school of hard knocks".
  - soundwave106 10y ago
    From my perspective, the world of the public school is actually what society is, like it or not. People don't encounter drugs, weapons, or sex in the adult world? The adult world doesn't have it's own "school of hard knocks"? News to me. (Sometimes this of course is due to poor life choices, but it's probably better to witness poor life choices firsthand.) I'm ambivalent on homeschooling and it largely depends on motivation. I can absolutely buy homeschooling as an alternative to a poor public school district with no opportunity for quality education. I don't buy homeschooling as a way for parents to hide their children from "the real world" or other more ideological reasons, which from what I see sometimes does happen. This is a bad strategy; after all, in so many career paths who you know is just as important or even more import as what you know. My guess is that homeschooling will produce both some of the best students and some of the worst, depending on the parent.
    - ghufran_syed 10y ago
      The worst of public school attendees in the United States join gangs and kill other human beings in US inner cities - I suspect that's much less common among homeschoolers. If true, I'd argue that the homeschool 'worst' is probably a lot better for society than the public school 'worst'. It would be an interesting research question. Disclosure: homeschooled our 4 kids, my eldest is 20 years old and working full time as a software engineer in sf. One down, three to go... :)
    - tajen 10y ago
      In the adult world, I'm much less mixed with people of different background. Sure in my coworking space there are translators, NGOs, ecologists, motion designers and programmers, but the thing is: They all work. If they beat or insult me, I can take then to court. Women also have a lot of protections against harassment. And I don't remember anyone talking about their swirlie experience in any workplace. School, to me, is like jail: It's the only place where I can meet such unregulated behaviors.
- ghufran_syed 10y ago
  You think adult society is like school? This author clearly disagrees with you: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
justinlaster 10y ago
>Modern schools seem to be a terrible environment to socialize kids, with things like bulling, weapons, drugs, sexting, sex Do people spouting this have any kind of realistic evidence for how schools are so terrible for socializing, instead of spouting off folksy wisdom? The whole "socialize, more like INSTITUTIONALIZE mirite guys?" just feels so flimsy and patronizing. Some are even comparing public schools to Lord of the Flies? That's just ridiculous.
- randomguy23 10y ago
  uhhh, yeah - we attended public school.
  - justinlaster 10y ago
    >folksy wisdom I also fail to see how any of those things listed are some how related specifically to schooling in any kind of institution. Everything that's listed exists in society by it's own "virtues." In fact, its rather silly to claim that homeschooling children will somehow not expose them to possibly more drugs, more weapons, more sexting, etc. It's not like the children and adults who bring forth those "qualities" of society are constrained at the public or private school walls. They're in your local bookstores, theaters, churches, youth groups, and your parks.
- wehadfun 10y ago
  Yea married to teachers, have children in schools, went to schools are selves. Way more relevant than some jackasses study or some article.
  - imron 10y ago
    > went to schools are selves Still need some work though ;-)
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Something something anecdote is not data.
- 10y ago
protomyth 10y ago
The only value I ever saw in the socialization aspect was when we had early childhood education centers that were family oriented (as opposed to age) and the older kids taught the young kids to use the potty. After that, it was all power and cliques. On a side note: in 1995 I used the word socialization in a sentence with a government official and immediately had to spend 5 minutes defining my meaning was not whatever she thought it was. Words mutate overtime in government and there are actually hot and cold words for grants. I'm pretty sure I would have got the same reaction even if she hadn't been a racist in the old sense (a shame when that happens to minorities particularly when its directed at other minorities).
throwaway729 10y ago
> Modern schools seem to be a terrible environment to socialize kids, with things like bulling, weapons, drugs, sexting, sex Look, I'm no fan of modern schooling (public or private), but this is pretty ridiculous. Bullying: I was bullied far more by the neighborhood kids than anyone at school. YMMV of course, but that's exactly the point -- kids are kids, and leaving the school building doesn't change that. Blaming school missing the point. Also, RE: churches, they're one of the few widespread institution where it's not abnormal for adults to gather and condemn people who are different (LGBT, non-sexually-repressed). It's just that churches have a much better grasp on socially appropriate rhetoric (not "faggot!" but "sinful lifestyle", not "slut!" but "you must save yourself for marriage". It's more subtle, but the intended effect is the same: otherizing people who are different from or disagree with the in-group and shaming them into conformance). If your child is gay, the local church youth group is very likely one of the most intense bullying experiences that child will ever experience. Sex: Teenagers are going to know and think about sex. Consider e.g. religious events for adolescents, which often explicitly discuss sex in a very moralizing way. In fact, IMO, having attended one, American conservative christian youth groups are one of the least healthy places to learn about sexuality. Weapons: I've been in a lot of schools, and in every single one of them, anything as much as a pocket knife was a huge deal. Drugs: Again, far more likely to encounter these hanging out with the neighborhood kids than in the (incredibly risky) setting of a modern school. Even the more die hard pot heads are rarely stupid enough to bring their drugs to school. So if "bullying, sex, drugs, and weapons" were my greatest fears, I'd probably lock my kids in school 24/7 and never let them play in the neighborhood without adult supervision. >...I don't think children will lose much socializing without schools. I don't think children necessarily have to lose much socializing without schools. But the anecdotal evidence I have suggests that providing sufficient socialization is much harder than it sounds.
- vivekd 10y ago
  what school did you go to - drugs and weapons were everywhere in my school. I bought pot off my classmates.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago

by vivekd 10y ago

twblalock 10y ago

> It seems like utter madness to want to have your kids "socialized" in an environment like that. That's what society is. What's the point of socializing kids into anything other than the actual society?

jstewartmobile 10y ago
Look around at what people do, at what people believe. Look at 4chan! Look at reddit! The point is to subtract from all of that rather than add to it.
- twblalock 10y ago
  The children will have to enter that society at some point. Would it be better to wait until they leave for college and let them experience all of that at the same time, for the first time?
  - jstewartmobile 10y ago
    I have yet to have a post-public-school (college, work, sales, relationships, you-name-it) experience that even comes close to the barbarity of my in-public-school experience. I've seen things on TV in that vicinity, but not in real life -- knock on wood! Of course, in my public school we had dudes who were fully-pubed driving their cars to the 6th grade, so kind of an extreme example.
  - sparrish 10y ago
    Yes. They'll be better equipped to rationally comprehend, question, and appreciate the world at that age. It's the same as any adult would better appreciate and understand travelling and experiencing other cultures more than a child.
joeclark77 10y ago
No, that's not what society is. Admittedly, public schools are doing their best to "shape" society with their own pathologies, but the behavior "socialized" in public schools still doesn't fly in the adult world. Most people spend their 20s unlearning that bizarre teenage socialization in the "school of hard knocks".
- soundwave106 10y ago
  From my perspective, the world of the public school is actually what society is, like it or not. People don't encounter drugs, weapons, or sex in the adult world? The adult world doesn't have it's own "school of hard knocks"? News to me. (Sometimes this of course is due to poor life choices, but it's probably better to witness poor life choices firsthand.) I'm ambivalent on homeschooling and it largely depends on motivation. I can absolutely buy homeschooling as an alternative to a poor public school district with no opportunity for quality education. I don't buy homeschooling as a way for parents to hide their children from "the real world" or other more ideological reasons, which from what I see sometimes does happen. This is a bad strategy; after all, in so many career paths who you know is just as important or even more import as what you know. My guess is that homeschooling will produce both some of the best students and some of the worst, depending on the parent.
  - ghufran_syed 10y ago
    The worst of public school attendees in the United States join gangs and kill other human beings in US inner cities - I suspect that's much less common among homeschoolers. If true, I'd argue that the homeschool 'worst' is probably a lot better for society than the public school 'worst'. It would be an interesting research question. Disclosure: homeschooled our 4 kids, my eldest is 20 years old and working full time as a software engineer in sf. One down, three to go... :)
  - tajen 10y ago
    In the adult world, I'm much less mixed with people of different background. Sure in my coworking space there are translators, NGOs, ecologists, motion designers and programmers, but the thing is: They all work. If they beat or insult me, I can take then to court. Women also have a lot of protections against harassment. And I don't remember anyone talking about their swirlie experience in any workplace. School, to me, is like jail: It's the only place where I can meet such unregulated behaviors.
ghufran_syed 10y ago
You think adult society is like school? This author clearly disagrees with you: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

justinlaster 10y ago

>Modern schools seem to be a terrible environment to socialize kids, with things like bulling, weapons, drugs, sexting, sex Do people spouting this have any kind of realistic evidence for how schools are so terrible for socializing, instead of spouting off folksy wisdom? The whole "socialize, more like INSTITUTIONALIZE mirite guys?" just feels so flimsy and patronizing. Some are even comparing public schools to Lord of the Flies? That's just ridiculous.

randomguy23 10y ago
uhhh, yeah - we attended public school.
- justinlaster 10y ago
  >folksy wisdom I also fail to see how any of those things listed are some how related specifically to schooling in any kind of institution. Everything that's listed exists in society by it's own "virtues." In fact, its rather silly to claim that homeschooling children will somehow not expose them to possibly more drugs, more weapons, more sexting, etc. It's not like the children and adults who bring forth those "qualities" of society are constrained at the public or private school walls. They're in your local bookstores, theaters, churches, youth groups, and your parks.
wehadfun 10y ago
Yea married to teachers, have children in schools, went to schools are selves. Way more relevant than some jackasses study or some article.
- imron 10y ago
  > went to schools are selves Still need some work though ;-)
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Something something anecdote is not data.
10y ago

protomyth 10y ago

The only value I ever saw in the socialization aspect was when we had early childhood education centers that were family oriented (as opposed to age) and the older kids taught the young kids to use the potty. After that, it was all power and cliques. On a side note: in 1995 I used the word socialization in a sentence with a government official and immediately had to spend 5 minutes defining my meaning was not whatever she thought it was. Words mutate overtime in government and there are actually hot and cold words for grants. I'm pretty sure I would have got the same reaction even if she hadn't been a racist in the old sense (a shame when that happens to minorities particularly when its directed at other minorities).

throwaway729 10y ago

> Modern schools seem to be a terrible environment to socialize kids, with things like bulling, weapons, drugs, sexting, sex Look, I'm no fan of modern schooling (public or private), but this is pretty ridiculous. Bullying: I was bullied far more by the neighborhood kids than anyone at school. YMMV of course, but that's exactly the point -- kids are kids, and leaving the school building doesn't change that. Blaming school missing the point. Also, RE: churches, they're one of the few widespread institution where it's not abnormal for adults to gather and condemn people who are different (LGBT, non-sexually-repressed). It's just that churches have a much better grasp on socially appropriate rhetoric (not "faggot!" but "sinful lifestyle", not "slut!" but "you must save yourself for marriage". It's more subtle, but the intended effect is the same: otherizing people who are different from or disagree with the in-group and shaming them into conformance). If your child is gay, the local church youth group is very likely one of the most intense bullying experiences that child will ever experience. Sex: Teenagers are going to know and think about sex. Consider e.g. religious events for adolescents, which often explicitly discuss sex in a very moralizing way. In fact, IMO, having attended one, American conservative christian youth groups are one of the least healthy places to learn about sexuality. Weapons: I've been in a lot of schools, and in every single one of them, anything as much as a pocket knife was a huge deal. Drugs: Again, far more likely to encounter these hanging out with the neighborhood kids than in the (incredibly risky) setting of a modern school. Even the more die hard pot heads are rarely stupid enough to bring their drugs to school. So if "bullying, sex, drugs, and weapons" were my greatest fears, I'd probably lock my kids in school 24/7 and never let them play in the neighborhood without adult supervision. >...I don't think children will lose much socializing without schools. I don't think children necessarily have to lose much socializing without schools. But the anecdotal evidence I have suggests that providing sufficient socialization is much harder than it sounds.

vivekd 10y ago
what school did you go to - drugs and weapons were everywhere in my school. I bought pot off my classmates.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago