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The word socialize seems to have been co-opted to mean institutionalize. The top-down authoritarian school system is completely antithetical to Western values o

The word socialize seems to have been co-opted to mean institutionalize. The top-down authoritarian school system is completely antithetical to Western values of freedom of expression and voluntary association. The Prussian model, from which state education systems are based upon, was designed to produce subservient citizens who will do as they're told and not make trouble by thinking for themselves. The state education system acts as a corporate subsidy for producing an obedient working class. The history of state education, especially in America, is pretty dark. John Taylor Gatto, former teacher of the year in New York several times over, has written extensively on the history of education and it's worth reading his books to understand why state education seems so bad -- basically because it's working as intended. Our current education systems are damaging our children's emotional and intellectual independence, and do not serve the hopes and wishes most parents have for their children's education. Voluntary options to state education should absolutely be celebrated, and parents should have the freedom to choose how to educate their own children.

snerbles 10y ago
The Prussians also inspired modern military drill, goose-stepping in particular. They really were pioneers of assembly-line indoctrination.
mrkgnao 10y ago
> John Taylor Gatto, former teacher of the year in New York several times over, has written extensively on the history of education Anything you'd recommend?
- clock_tower 10y ago
  At a guess: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto#Bibliography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto#Bibliography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto#External_links https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto#External_lin... And he's well worth looking into.
pasquinelli 10y ago
"Voluntary options to state education should absolutely be celebrated, and parents should have the freedom to choose how to educate their own children." See, at first when you said "voluntary" I misunderstood the word to refer to the kid's participation, but you meant voluntary as in for the parents to decide what their kid does. All this talk of the ills of public schools, but you know a household is also a top down authoritarian system, one that certainly doesn't have more tolerance for free expression than a school, and one that isn't voluntary in the least. Most of the hostility to public schools seems to be from parents who don't want dictatorial competition. I have no problem with homeschooling, but I'm no devotee, and I don't really buy a lot of what advocates say. Like, in actual fact, is there any evidence that homeschooling produces kids that are less, "subservient citizens who will do as they're told and not make trouble by thinking for themselves?" Then again I'm not a great fan of the public school system. But I will say that when people say that public school is better for socialization, what they mean is that kids get the chance to navigate complex social relationships, (peers of all kinds, older near-peers of all kinds, younger ones, authority figures), and do so truly on there own.
justinlaster 10y ago
> The top-down authoritarian school system is completely antithetical to Western values So you want to take the kids out of an environment where they get to see other perspectives and instead leave it up to their parents to not create what is effectively a social, cultural, and intellectual bubble? That seems incredibly naive.
- joeclark77 10y ago
  In what world is normal life in society a "bubble" but rigidly-structured conformity to professionally-designed programs in a walled-off institution not a bubble?
  - justinlaster 10y ago
    Your responses are exceedingly worthless and snarky, try actually putting forth some kind of substantive statement instead of following me around. A student that is placed into a public school has many teachers, with many other student peers from all walks of life that will offer their own perspectives on anything from social issues to academic subjects. Your disingenuous hyperbolic claim that this environment is somehow "walled off" is ridiculous non-sense.
    - pavel_lishin 10y ago
      > with many other student peers from all walks of life That strongly depends on your school district. Chicago's shittier schools aren't likely to have too many cultures represented. My high school in Texas had a grand total of four black students throughout all four years, and three immigrants - one of whom was me. The rest was white and hispanic southern kids.
      - dpark 10y ago
        How many immigrants do you suppose most homeschooled kids interact with?
        10y ago

snerbles 10y ago

The Prussians also inspired modern military drill, goose-stepping in particular. They really were pioneers of assembly-line indoctrination.

mrkgnao 10y ago

> John Taylor Gatto, former teacher of the year in New York several times over, has written extensively on the history of education Anything you'd recommend?

clock_tower 10y ago
At a guess: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto#Bibliography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto#Bibliography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto#External_links https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto#External_lin... And he's well worth looking into.

pasquinelli 10y ago

"Voluntary options to state education should absolutely be celebrated, and parents should have the freedom to choose how to educate their own children." See, at first when you said "voluntary" I misunderstood the word to refer to the kid's participation, but you meant voluntary as in for the parents to decide what their kid does. All this talk of the ills of public schools, but you know a household is also a top down authoritarian system, one that certainly doesn't have more tolerance for free expression than a school, and one that isn't voluntary in the least. Most of the hostility to public schools seems to be from parents who don't want dictatorial competition. I have no problem with homeschooling, but I'm no devotee, and I don't really buy a lot of what advocates say. Like, in actual fact, is there any evidence that homeschooling produces kids that are less, "subservient citizens who will do as they're told and not make trouble by thinking for themselves?" Then again I'm not a great fan of the public school system. But I will say that when people say that public school is better for socialization, what they mean is that kids get the chance to navigate complex social relationships, (peers of all kinds, older near-peers of all kinds, younger ones, authority figures), and do so truly on there own.

justinlaster 10y ago

> The top-down authoritarian school system is completely antithetical to Western values So you want to take the kids out of an environment where they get to see other perspectives and instead leave it up to their parents to not create what is effectively a social, cultural, and intellectual bubble? That seems incredibly naive.

joeclark77 10y ago
In what world is normal life in society a "bubble" but rigidly-structured conformity to professionally-designed programs in a walled-off institution not a bubble?
- justinlaster 10y ago
  Your responses are exceedingly worthless and snarky, try actually putting forth some kind of substantive statement instead of following me around. A student that is placed into a public school has many teachers, with many other student peers from all walks of life that will offer their own perspectives on anything from social issues to academic subjects. Your disingenuous hyperbolic claim that this environment is somehow "walled off" is ridiculous non-sense.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    > with many other student peers from all walks of life That strongly depends on your school district. Chicago's shittier schools aren't likely to have too many cultures represented. My high school in Texas had a grand total of four black students throughout all four years, and three immigrants - one of whom was me. The rest was white and hispanic southern kids.
    - dpark 10y ago
      How many immigrants do you suppose most homeschooled kids interact with?
      - 10y ago