11 ms·

I know everyone on HN is big into the whole math, stem, good college thing, but out here in Central Time, all you really need to have a nice life is to not be a

I know everyone on HN is big into the whole math, stem, good college thing, but out here in Central Time, all you really need to have a nice life is to not be an ass. Most schools (even some of the good ones) turn kids into asses through the "Lord of the Flies" effect. Think about it: You have inexperienced little people with underdeveloped judgement spending most of their waking hours for most of the year with other little people who are in the same boat. And people call this socialization! "I do not think that means what you think it means." If kids had a little more contact with mature, self-actualized people growing up, they wouldn't have as much baggage to work through in adolescent/adult life.

snerbles 10y ago
Transitioning from a home schooled to an institutional education setting at the age of 11 was quite brutal. At least I had martial arts training.
- jstewartmobile 10y ago
  That is an excellent point! If you're going to homeschool, probably a good idea to train your kids in various forms of fitness/self-defense/badassery... just in case!
  - snerbles 10y ago
    It was really for physical education...the question posed by my parents was "Tee-ball or karate?" Needless to say that most six and seven-year-old boys have ninja aspirations. It was a source of discipline, and the dojo was one of my main social groups growing up through every sort of school.
r00fus 10y ago
This is why alternative school structures like Montessori and pod-classes (ie, mixed grade) allow for some role-taking and giving students the ability to guide other students. I honestly think a majority of education dysfunction comes with dual-income scenarios with "extended daycare" - If the children spent more time with their parents, it would help them really "socialize".
- mulletbum 10y ago
  but that is not feasible for mass majority of people in our society. That is why public offering is so important and that funds aren't diverted from it, because we can give opportunities to all students no matter the financial situation their parents are in.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    It doesn't work out that way though, public schools in wealthy areas are much better than in poor areas.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      Equal funding mandates don't address cost differentials, and poor people often live where key education-related costs are higher (e.g., the cost of getting good teachers to work there, as the areas are less attractive to live and farther to commute from places more attract to live.) And some states, IIRC, don't even have equal funding mandates to start with.
      - cmdrfred 10y ago
        I didn't even know some states have an equal funding mandate, where I live the rich kids go to schools that look like castles and the poor kids go to schools with holes in the ceilings.
        xiaoma 10y ago
        Interesting. My high school looked like a prison. No idea if it's true or not, but some students said the architect did both.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        Equal funding mandates, where they exist, often address operating funding, not capital costs. Of course, infrastructure quality effects operating costs, so there is a source of inequality right there.
Overtonwindow 10y ago
WOW someone else who sees the Lord of the Flies effect. I think children fall into this trap because they want power. At such young ages power is everything. Power over themselves, and over other people. Bullying, cliques, popularity, it's all about power. Those who have it want to expand it, and exert it over others. Those who don't have it, want to stay away from those who do. To fix this, schools must do more to balance the power. Make all kids clean the school. Remove decisions around popularity; random group assignments, etc. Treat bullying just as serious as a kid bringing a weapon to school. Zero tolerance, and order teachers to use their control in the classroom, instead of giving up that responsibility to administrators. Break the power dynamic for these kids, IMHO, by whatever means necessary, and you will fix the system.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I don't think this effect is at all unique to children they are just less subtle about it. Bullying causes lots of negative effects but I can't say its worse than growing up without the skills to handle adversity.
  - philwelch 10y ago
    To whatever extent childhood is training for adulthood, navigating school popularity and politics is training for navigating politics at work and in adult communities.
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      I was bullyed a lot. Poor kid with cheap clothes that were too small. If I wasn't as headstrong it would of been crushing (headstrong in public school = ADD when I attended). Perhaps the solution is to find ways to give real positive praise to kids instead of trying to remove every single negative reaction they might have.
- tropo 10y ago
  The best that can be done is to harness the natural urge to dominate peers. Put it to use by granting dominance tools in exchange for academic success. Good GPA? Wear what you like, except distractions (naked) mean back-of-class seating. Bad GPA? You wear a one-size-fits-all jumpsuit made of faded rose-colored velvet. Good GPA? Eat what you like. Bad GPA? You get that squishy nutriloaf thing normally reserved for misbehaving prisoners. Good GPA? You get first choice for slots in sports teams, drama club, choir, cheerleading, and all the rest. It doesn't matter if you suck at the activity. Bad GPA? No participation permitted. Enforce prom date pairs having a minimum average GPA. Those with the highest GPA can pick anybody. Those at the midpoint can pick the better half of the school. Those at the bottom get only one choice, and will thus need to make nice with the top-performing student. Good GPA? Wander in and out of school as you please. Bad GPA? You pass through metal detectors, get a pat-down, and are sniffed at by the drug-detecting dog. Good GPA? Move around and chat with friends during lunch. Bad GPA? You get assigned seating and must eat in total silence. People will invent new ways to attempt dominance. Brutally crush this for any student who fails to perform academically.
doomtop 10y ago
But wouldn't trying to solve some of these problems make more sense than a turn toward homeschooling? Maybe get more mature, self-actualized people involved in the lives of all children, not just the privileged ones? I don't see how promoting homeschooling as the alternative to schools is a good solution here. Also, a turn toward homeschooling can be a total wildcard based on the values and intent of the individual parents. The movie Dogtooth[1] is somewhat relevant here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtooth_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtooth_(film)
- phd514 10y ago
  You're treading a dangerous path when you call out the values and intents of individual parents as factors in deciding when homeschooling is or is not beneficial. Of course that is true, but whom do you propose to empower to decide what values and intents are acceptable?
  - doomtop 10y ago
    Well, that's sort of my point. I don't think there is a good solution to empower some entity to decide what values and intents are acceptable. But I don't think the values and intents of parents keeping their kids at home for schooling are always acceptable, which is emphasized in an exaggerated way in the Dogtooth film. I'm sure in some cases homeschooling could be beneficial and "better" for an individual child than the existing school system. I just think mistaking homeschooling as an "alternative" to trying to solve problems of the school system is its own dangerous path.
    - et1337 10y ago
      I was homeschooled by a typical unqualified mom who "brainwashed" us with the crazy anti-evolution stuff everyone is so terrified of. That one tiny topic doesn't invalidate your entire education. Most people couldn't tell you the first thing about evolution anyway. She always worried that her inability to teach was ruining us. My dad said her teaching was not that important; her main job was just to be someone with a pulse who cared about us to the exclusion of all else. And it worked, I entered honors engineering at age 16. Someone has to decide what the kid learns. It might as well be someone who has a better chance of actually caring about them.
RUG3Y 10y ago
I've argued this many times when "socialization" comes up. So, other undisciplined brats should teach my kids how to behave in society? It's my opinion that children learn much more from their time with adults. It's likely that there's another aspect to the "Lord of the Flies" effect - Children are being socialized by other savages at school all day, then they come home and are virtually ignored by mommy and daddy.
- jbigelow76 10y ago
  >I've argued this many times when "socialization" comes up. So, other undisciplined brats should teach my kids how to behave in society? To every other parent out there, your little snowflake, is the undisciplined brat that is ruining their kid. It's the universal law of parenting.
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    It's far from a universal law, and while I appreciate the judgement you've passed on my snowflakes, I'm not easy on them and I'm very involved in their development, something that many of their peers don't seem to have.
    - doomtop 10y ago
      I don't think they were passing any specific judgement on your snowflakes, but rather just saying it's all relative. If you look at the tone and language of your comments, there is quite a bit of detectable judgement and condescension. I'm sure your kids have great parent(s) who are involved, but I'm not sure you recognize the privilege your family enjoys. I think this point-of-view is troubling when looking at how we might approach the real problems facing society re: children, education, etc.
    - jbigelow76 10y ago
      "something that many of their peers don't seem to have." There you go passing judgement just like I did, assuming that isolated events you may see in interactions between your kid and other kids is indicative of them being raised in an environment lacking discipline or involvement.
spamizbad 10y ago
That "Lord of the Flies" effect, assuming we're not talking about it in a hyperbolic sense, is children learning how to be adults and making mistakes. How do children gain experience socializing? By socializing. Not waiting until they are legal adults to spread their social wings... that just breeds unhappy, socially awkward adults. Toddlers have atrocious fine and gross motor skills but we don't tell them to just sit still and do nothing until they're older: We let them play, explore, and yep... hurt themselves. We let them do things the hard way, so they can think to do it an easier way in the future. And I think the same philosophy can be applied to socializing. I do understand there are school districts that serve large bodies of "latchkey kids." I was fortunate enough to avoid that in my public education, but I have less fortunate friends who came out fine-- several of whom had a much better experience in school that I did, weirdly enough. And although I didn't exactly enjoy my time in school, I would never trade it for homeschooling. I had the foundation necessary to pursue my interests. And during my time in public schools, I've met several people in school I'm still friends with almost 20 years later.
- wyager 10y ago
  I think you misunderstood the GP. Only interacting with people within ~a year of your own age while growing up (public school class) is not effective socialization. The social group of homeschooled kids is often +/- 5 years, which means they get experience dealing with younger children and they get maturity cues from older children. It's a much more realistic social environment.
  - spamizbad 10y ago
    > Only interacting with people within ~a year of your own age while growing up (public school class) is not effective socialization. This is not a view shared by developmental psychologists. Playing with children their own age is fertile ground to learn how to share, how to take turns, etc. As far s the child is concerned, they are on even footing in the social hierarchy with their peers and must resolve conflicts with their peers without falling back on defaults. Moving into adolescence things become more complicated and nuanced-- coping with peer pressure, dating, developing a sense of self etc. But that's all very critical.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ryandrake 10y ago
I have to say--I came into this thread with the belief that homeschooling is only about "shield my kid from Evilution and Sex Ed and teach them the world is 4000 years old". But you make good points. I think back to my public school experience and I would never want to subject my daughter to that hell. There does need to be an alternative to the violence, gangs, anti-socialization and institutionalization that comes with public school. I wish there was a way to mix the educational quality of public school (which I do believe is better than I could provide--im not a world history or literature expert) with the socialization of homeschool.
- TrevorJ 10y ago
  I was home schooled, and I have also been a teacher in the private school setting for a number of years. I am convinced that the number one (and perhaps only) thing an education should provide are the skills necessary to teach oneself. Literacy, critical thinking and a love for knowledge. If you can instill your child with these, they have all the tools necessary to eclipse your own understanding of subjects that you aren't personally knowledgeable about. I would consider my k-12 math education to be something of a failure of my own making, but I have always been able to teach myself the math that I need to know as the practical need for it arises because I was taught how to learn.
wizardforhire 10y ago
In addition, if anyone hasn't read this essay or if it's been awhile... Highly worth the time, highly worth the discussion. Against School - John Taylor Gatto http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm (Previously on Hacker News) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2381608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2381608
- netrap 10y ago
  Blew my mind... great essay! Thanks
jbigelow76 10y ago
Do you have kids? If yes, did you save them from the fate of socializing with other kids, or were they forever ruined and now you offer their story up as a cautionary tale. Or is this just a theory?
- jstewartmobile 10y ago
  I have kids. You don't have to go to a formal school to get socialized. You just need friends and activities. Like the ones people pursue when they're not trapped in a room for seven hours a day, five days a week, nine months of the year, for 13 years of their lives.
J-dawg 10y ago
Comments like this are the reason I keep coming back to HN. People here consistently have the ability to either change my opinion, or (as in this case) articulate something I've always felt but not quite been able to explain. Thank you. Have you ever noticed, whenever a group of adults talks about their school days there are always lots of stories about being bullied and general unpleasant experiences. At first it seems statistically improbable - those damn bullies didn't pick on everybody did they? Maybe the truth is that kids are generally just fucking horrible to each other. That, apart from a few isolated cases, the meme of the Nelson Muntz style "school bully" is a myth. Many (most?) kids are both the bully and the bullied. This brutal experience gives us all the baggage we need to work through in the future. Maybe we should be honest about what school is really for. I always thought Paul Graham was right when he said it's really just a place to put teenagers until they're useful to society. > Now adults have no immediate use for teenagers. They would be in the way in an office. So they drop them off at school on their way to work, much as they might drop the dog off at a kennel if they were going away for the weekend. [0] [0] http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
- stared 10y ago
  Most of my nerdy friends were bullied. Most of my non-nerdy friends were not bullied. Or maybe other way - some may have some bulling incidents, rather than being a victim being the main story of their primary school. (And yes, being bullied does not stop one from bulling - on other occasion, in another place.)
  - paulryanrogers 10y ago
    Peer exposure was important for me growing up. Despite bullying it is useful for learning to relate to others at and below one's level. And for only children that may not be available outside school. Of course with schools the ratio of peers to adults is dangerously close to Lord of the Flies.
  - J-dawg 10y ago
    Admittedly my anecdotal experiences might also be affected by confirmation bias, based on the nerdiness of the people I associate with.
maxerickson 10y ago
What if schools are working the opposite way you speculate? What if the kids that are exposed to mature, self-actualized people are socializing their peers in that direction rather than being torn down to the peer level? Of course a fun aspect of human behavior is that a kid might be mature and self actualized around their parents and then be a bully at school because they are friends with bullies.
euroclydon 10y ago
We homeschooled for years. Now our kids are in public school. Both homeschooling and public/private schooling have plenty of good outcomes. But there are some positive peer-induced socializations. Both my boys had some quite annoying habits of speech and mannerisms that are gone now. I think part of the reason is that their peers are less understanding and forgiving of such behavior than their parents. Similarly, they are more receptive to peer criticism, as it packs more of a threat. Other kids will ostracize you; parents, not so much.
AnimalMuppet 10y ago
"Whenever we worry about socialization [for our homeschooled kids], we grab them, yank them into the bathroom, and beat them up for their lunch money." I stole that from somewhere, but it makes the point. Much "socialization" in public schools is not a net win.
dnautics 10y ago
I'm a product of "alternative" education (my public middle school was middle school + high school, my undergrad had more grad students than undergrad, my grad school had more postdocs than grad students and no undergrads). My college was popular among children who had been homeschooled, and after college my social circles seemed to have a lot of kids who were homeschooled (for religious and non-religious reasons), and I have to wholly 100% agree with this. I don't understand why people think that socialization in the form of public schools - which is actually quite artificial and 'unnatural' in terms of human history - is necessary or desirable.

snerbles 10y ago

Transitioning from a home schooled to an institutional education setting at the age of 11 was quite brutal. At least I had martial arts training.

jstewartmobile 10y ago
That is an excellent point! If you're going to homeschool, probably a good idea to train your kids in various forms of fitness/self-defense/badassery... just in case!
- snerbles 10y ago
  It was really for physical education...the question posed by my parents was "Tee-ball or karate?" Needless to say that most six and seven-year-old boys have ninja aspirations. It was a source of discipline, and the dojo was one of my main social groups growing up through every sort of school.

r00fus 10y ago

This is why alternative school structures like Montessori and pod-classes (ie, mixed grade) allow for some role-taking and giving students the ability to guide other students. I honestly think a majority of education dysfunction comes with dual-income scenarios with "extended daycare" - If the children spent more time with their parents, it would help them really "socialize".

mulletbum 10y ago
but that is not feasible for mass majority of people in our society. That is why public offering is so important and that funds aren't diverted from it, because we can give opportunities to all students no matter the financial situation their parents are in.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  It doesn't work out that way though, public schools in wealthy areas are much better than in poor areas.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Equal funding mandates don't address cost differentials, and poor people often live where key education-related costs are higher (e.g., the cost of getting good teachers to work there, as the areas are less attractive to live and farther to commute from places more attract to live.) And some states, IIRC, don't even have equal funding mandates to start with.
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      I didn't even know some states have an equal funding mandate, where I live the rich kids go to schools that look like castles and the poor kids go to schools with holes in the ceilings.
      - xiaoma 10y ago
        Interesting. My high school looked like a prison. No idea if it's true or not, but some students said the architect did both.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        Equal funding mandates, where they exist, often address operating funding, not capital costs. Of course, infrastructure quality effects operating costs, so there is a source of inequality right there.

Overtonwindow 10y ago

WOW someone else who sees the Lord of the Flies effect. I think children fall into this trap because they want power. At such young ages power is everything. Power over themselves, and over other people. Bullying, cliques, popularity, it's all about power. Those who have it want to expand it, and exert it over others. Those who don't have it, want to stay away from those who do. To fix this, schools must do more to balance the power. Make all kids clean the school. Remove decisions around popularity; random group assignments, etc. Treat bullying just as serious as a kid bringing a weapon to school. Zero tolerance, and order teachers to use their control in the classroom, instead of giving up that responsibility to administrators. Break the power dynamic for these kids, IMHO, by whatever means necessary, and you will fix the system.

cmdrfred 10y ago
I don't think this effect is at all unique to children they are just less subtle about it. Bullying causes lots of negative effects but I can't say its worse than growing up without the skills to handle adversity.
- philwelch 10y ago
  To whatever extent childhood is training for adulthood, navigating school popularity and politics is training for navigating politics at work and in adult communities.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I was bullyed a lot. Poor kid with cheap clothes that were too small. If I wasn't as headstrong it would of been crushing (headstrong in public school = ADD when I attended). Perhaps the solution is to find ways to give real positive praise to kids instead of trying to remove every single negative reaction they might have.
tropo 10y ago
The best that can be done is to harness the natural urge to dominate peers. Put it to use by granting dominance tools in exchange for academic success. Good GPA? Wear what you like, except distractions (naked) mean back-of-class seating. Bad GPA? You wear a one-size-fits-all jumpsuit made of faded rose-colored velvet. Good GPA? Eat what you like. Bad GPA? You get that squishy nutriloaf thing normally reserved for misbehaving prisoners. Good GPA? You get first choice for slots in sports teams, drama club, choir, cheerleading, and all the rest. It doesn't matter if you suck at the activity. Bad GPA? No participation permitted. Enforce prom date pairs having a minimum average GPA. Those with the highest GPA can pick anybody. Those at the midpoint can pick the better half of the school. Those at the bottom get only one choice, and will thus need to make nice with the top-performing student. Good GPA? Wander in and out of school as you please. Bad GPA? You pass through metal detectors, get a pat-down, and are sniffed at by the drug-detecting dog. Good GPA? Move around and chat with friends during lunch. Bad GPA? You get assigned seating and must eat in total silence. People will invent new ways to attempt dominance. Brutally crush this for any student who fails to perform academically.

doomtop 10y ago

But wouldn't trying to solve some of these problems make more sense than a turn toward homeschooling? Maybe get more mature, self-actualized people involved in the lives of all children, not just the privileged ones? I don't see how promoting homeschooling as the alternative to schools is a good solution here. Also, a turn toward homeschooling can be a total wildcard based on the values and intent of the individual parents. The movie Dogtooth[1] is somewhat relevant here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtooth_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtooth_(film)

phd514 10y ago
You're treading a dangerous path when you call out the values and intents of individual parents as factors in deciding when homeschooling is or is not beneficial. Of course that is true, but whom do you propose to empower to decide what values and intents are acceptable?
- doomtop 10y ago
  Well, that's sort of my point. I don't think there is a good solution to empower some entity to decide what values and intents are acceptable. But I don't think the values and intents of parents keeping their kids at home for schooling are always acceptable, which is emphasized in an exaggerated way in the Dogtooth film. I'm sure in some cases homeschooling could be beneficial and "better" for an individual child than the existing school system. I just think mistaking homeschooling as an "alternative" to trying to solve problems of the school system is its own dangerous path.
  - et1337 10y ago
    I was homeschooled by a typical unqualified mom who "brainwashed" us with the crazy anti-evolution stuff everyone is so terrified of. That one tiny topic doesn't invalidate your entire education. Most people couldn't tell you the first thing about evolution anyway. She always worried that her inability to teach was ruining us. My dad said her teaching was not that important; her main job was just to be someone with a pulse who cared about us to the exclusion of all else. And it worked, I entered honors engineering at age 16. Someone has to decide what the kid learns. It might as well be someone who has a better chance of actually caring about them.

RUG3Y 10y ago

I've argued this many times when "socialization" comes up. So, other undisciplined brats should teach my kids how to behave in society? It's my opinion that children learn much more from their time with adults. It's likely that there's another aspect to the "Lord of the Flies" effect - Children are being socialized by other savages at school all day, then they come home and are virtually ignored by mommy and daddy.

jbigelow76 10y ago
>I've argued this many times when "socialization" comes up. So, other undisciplined brats should teach my kids how to behave in society? To every other parent out there, your little snowflake, is the undisciplined brat that is ruining their kid. It's the universal law of parenting.
- RUG3Y 10y ago
  It's far from a universal law, and while I appreciate the judgement you've passed on my snowflakes, I'm not easy on them and I'm very involved in their development, something that many of their peers don't seem to have.
  - doomtop 10y ago
    I don't think they were passing any specific judgement on your snowflakes, but rather just saying it's all relative. If you look at the tone and language of your comments, there is quite a bit of detectable judgement and condescension. I'm sure your kids have great parent(s) who are involved, but I'm not sure you recognize the privilege your family enjoys. I think this point-of-view is troubling when looking at how we might approach the real problems facing society re: children, education, etc.
  - jbigelow76 10y ago
    "something that many of their peers don't seem to have." There you go passing judgement just like I did, assuming that isolated events you may see in interactions between your kid and other kids is indicative of them being raised in an environment lacking discipline or involvement.

spamizbad 10y ago

That "Lord of the Flies" effect, assuming we're not talking about it in a hyperbolic sense, is children learning how to be adults and making mistakes. How do children gain experience socializing? By socializing. Not waiting until they are legal adults to spread their social wings... that just breeds unhappy, socially awkward adults. Toddlers have atrocious fine and gross motor skills but we don't tell them to just sit still and do nothing until they're older: We let them play, explore, and yep... hurt themselves. We let them do things the hard way, so they can think to do it an easier way in the future. And I think the same philosophy can be applied to socializing. I do understand there are school districts that serve large bodies of "latchkey kids." I was fortunate enough to avoid that in my public education, but I have less fortunate friends who came out fine-- several of whom had a much better experience in school that I did, weirdly enough. And although I didn't exactly enjoy my time in school, I would never trade it for homeschooling. I had the foundation necessary to pursue my interests. And during my time in public schools, I've met several people in school I'm still friends with almost 20 years later.

wyager 10y ago
I think you misunderstood the GP. Only interacting with people within ~a year of your own age while growing up (public school class) is not effective socialization. The social group of homeschooled kids is often +/- 5 years, which means they get experience dealing with younger children and they get maturity cues from older children. It's a much more realistic social environment.
- spamizbad 10y ago
  > Only interacting with people within ~a year of your own age while growing up (public school class) is not effective socialization. This is not a view shared by developmental psychologists. Playing with children their own age is fertile ground to learn how to share, how to take turns, etc. As far s the child is concerned, they are on even footing in the social hierarchy with their peers and must resolve conflicts with their peers without falling back on defaults. Moving into adolescence things become more complicated and nuanced-- coping with peer pressure, dating, developing a sense of self etc. But that's all very critical.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ryandrake 10y ago

I have to say--I came into this thread with the belief that homeschooling is only about "shield my kid from Evilution and Sex Ed and teach them the world is 4000 years old". But you make good points. I think back to my public school experience and I would never want to subject my daughter to that hell. There does need to be an alternative to the violence, gangs, anti-socialization and institutionalization that comes with public school. I wish there was a way to mix the educational quality of public school (which I do believe is better than I could provide--im not a world history or literature expert) with the socialization of homeschool.

TrevorJ 10y ago
I was home schooled, and I have also been a teacher in the private school setting for a number of years. I am convinced that the number one (and perhaps only) thing an education should provide are the skills necessary to teach oneself. Literacy, critical thinking and a love for knowledge. If you can instill your child with these, they have all the tools necessary to eclipse your own understanding of subjects that you aren't personally knowledgeable about. I would consider my k-12 math education to be something of a failure of my own making, but I have always been able to teach myself the math that I need to know as the practical need for it arises because I was taught how to learn.

wizardforhire 10y ago

In addition, if anyone hasn't read this essay or if it's been awhile... Highly worth the time, highly worth the discussion. Against School - John Taylor Gatto http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm (Previously on Hacker News) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2381608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2381608

netrap 10y ago
Blew my mind... great essay! Thanks

jbigelow76 10y ago

Do you have kids? If yes, did you save them from the fate of socializing with other kids, or were they forever ruined and now you offer their story up as a cautionary tale. Or is this just a theory?

jstewartmobile 10y ago
I have kids. You don't have to go to a formal school to get socialized. You just need friends and activities. Like the ones people pursue when they're not trapped in a room for seven hours a day, five days a week, nine months of the year, for 13 years of their lives.

J-dawg 10y ago

Comments like this are the reason I keep coming back to HN. People here consistently have the ability to either change my opinion, or (as in this case) articulate something I've always felt but not quite been able to explain. Thank you. Have you ever noticed, whenever a group of adults talks about their school days there are always lots of stories about being bullied and general unpleasant experiences. At first it seems statistically improbable - those damn bullies didn't pick on everybody did they? Maybe the truth is that kids are generally just fucking horrible to each other. That, apart from a few isolated cases, the meme of the Nelson Muntz style "school bully" is a myth. Many (most?) kids are both the bully and the bullied. This brutal experience gives us all the baggage we need to work through in the future. Maybe we should be honest about what school is really for. I always thought Paul Graham was right when he said it's really just a place to put teenagers until they're useful to society. > Now adults have no immediate use for teenagers. They would be in the way in an office. So they drop them off at school on their way to work, much as they might drop the dog off at a kennel if they were going away for the weekend. [0] [0] http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

stared 10y ago
Most of my nerdy friends were bullied. Most of my non-nerdy friends were not bullied. Or maybe other way - some may have some bulling incidents, rather than being a victim being the main story of their primary school. (And yes, being bullied does not stop one from bulling - on other occasion, in another place.)
- paulryanrogers 10y ago
  Peer exposure was important for me growing up. Despite bullying it is useful for learning to relate to others at and below one's level. And for only children that may not be available outside school. Of course with schools the ratio of peers to adults is dangerously close to Lord of the Flies.
- J-dawg 10y ago
  Admittedly my anecdotal experiences might also be affected by confirmation bias, based on the nerdiness of the people I associate with.

maxerickson 10y ago

What if schools are working the opposite way you speculate? What if the kids that are exposed to mature, self-actualized people are socializing their peers in that direction rather than being torn down to the peer level? Of course a fun aspect of human behavior is that a kid might be mature and self actualized around their parents and then be a bully at school because they are friends with bullies.

euroclydon 10y ago

We homeschooled for years. Now our kids are in public school. Both homeschooling and public/private schooling have plenty of good outcomes. But there are some positive peer-induced socializations. Both my boys had some quite annoying habits of speech and mannerisms that are gone now. I think part of the reason is that their peers are less understanding and forgiving of such behavior than their parents. Similarly, they are more receptive to peer criticism, as it packs more of a threat. Other kids will ostracize you; parents, not so much.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

"Whenever we worry about socialization [for our homeschooled kids], we grab them, yank them into the bathroom, and beat them up for their lunch money." I stole that from somewhere, but it makes the point. Much "socialization" in public schools is not a net win.

dnautics 10y ago

I'm a product of "alternative" education (my public middle school was middle school + high school, my undergrad had more grad students than undergrad, my grad school had more postdocs than grad students and no undergrads). My college was popular among children who had been homeschooled, and after college my social circles seemed to have a lot of kids who were homeschooled (for religious and non-religious reasons), and I have to wholly 100% agree with this. I don't understand why people think that socialization in the form of public schools - which is actually quite artificial and 'unnatural' in terms of human history - is necessary or desirable.