4 ms·

How can one distinguish between these two descriptions of a drug's effect: 1. it brings psychological insights resulting in lasting peace 2. it permanently di

by tlb 10y ago

How can one distinguish between these two descriptions of a drug's effect: 1. it brings psychological insights resulting in lasting peace 2. it permanently disables part of the brain responsible for fear and anxiety reactions Obviously one sounds good and one sounds bad, but I wonder what study you could perform to accept hypothesis 1 but reject hypothesis 2.

Alex3917 10y ago
> I wonder what study you could perform to accept hypothesis 1 but reject hypothesis 2. One test would be whether only fear relating to one's own death is eliminated, or whether all fear is eliminated. E.g. I wouldn't expect a mother to let her children play with knives or whatever. Also, the key mediating variable in terms of people achieving lasting peace is whether or not they have a mystical experience. And whether or not one has this qualitative experience is only loosely related to dosage, which to me makes it unlikely that some part of the brain is just getting biologically switched off or whatever.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
taneq 10y ago
You can reject hypothesis 2 simply by seeing what percentage of people who've tried the drug have a permanently diminished fear or anxiety response. I don't know of any official figures but from anecdata, I'd say that they don't.
firethief 10y ago
2 would be a miracle drug; the penicillin of psychiatry. A lot of people have long-term problems with excessive fear and anxiety, and the drugs we do have to address these things on a neurochemical level are iffy in efficacy and side effects can range into the disturbing.
TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago
Traditional antidepressents are like the friend who gives you a hug when you're feeling bad. It helps, but it's only designed to address how you're feeling. Psychedelics are more like the therapist who will help you realise why you feel that way, and allow you to look at things from a different perspective. When the immediate effect has worn off, antidepressents just return you to baseline, while psychedelics leave you with the memory of your experience and the ability to take that step back from yourself.
- privateprofile 10y ago
  >> When the immediate effect has worn off, antidepressents just return you to baseline Not really. When an antidepressant's effect wanes, most people experience severe withdrawal symptoms and side effects (e.g. hallucinations), and many patients find it impossible to cope with the withdrawal and live without the mind numbing effect. What most antidepressants will do is actually get you to a baseline state where you're feeling numb and having a mild existence of not experiencing happiness/calm or sadness/anxiety, but in a strange/empty place between the normal ups and downs of life.
  - adn 10y ago
    Saying things like this is really really dangerous in my opinion, because in addition to being totally false it can discourage someone struggling with depression / anxiety / whatever from seeking treatment because they don't want to feel "numb." I'm sure I can speak for not just myself but many others here and say that without antidepressants I'd probably be dead, and the only part of life they've eliminated are the lowest valleys of depression. At one point I considered not taking them because I believed in this same misconception (I was afraid to lose my creativity), but I'm very glad now I did not give in to that fear. Please do not spread misinformation about potentially life-saving medication.
    - privateprofile 10y ago
      Medication can be necessary in extreme cases, to stabilize a patient whose thought processes are too disorganized to undergo therapy. This is the professional opinion that I've received from multiple therapists. More professional opinions at [2] and [3]. It's hard to believe that all the thousands of people that are prescribed antidepressants are going through severe (i.e. crippling) depression. I'm glad that you experienced only mild/no side-effects, but that it appears this is not the case with the majority of patients [1]. Someone struggling with depression/anxiety/whatever should seek treatment for the causes of their suffering, of course. However, the common mantra is that a pill will solve your ill, the fact that antidepressants are prescribed like candy (second only to antibiotics) should hint on this. The problem is that, at best, the pill will help you with symptoms and will not solve the underlying causes (often related to trauma handling or with how one deals with the hardships of life). [1] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidepressants-just-placebos-with-side-effects/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidep... [2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-antidepressants-work/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-antidepressant... [3] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/many-antidepressant-studies-found-tainted-by-pharma-company-influence/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/many-antidepressa...

by tlb 10y ago

Alex3917 10y ago

> I wonder what study you could perform to accept hypothesis 1 but reject hypothesis 2. One test would be whether only fear relating to one's own death is eliminated, or whether all fear is eliminated. E.g. I wouldn't expect a mother to let her children play with knives or whatever. Also, the key mediating variable in terms of people achieving lasting peace is whether or not they have a mystical experience. And whether or not one has this qualitative experience is only loosely related to dosage, which to me makes it unlikely that some part of the brain is just getting biologically switched off or whatever.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

taneq 10y ago

You can reject hypothesis 2 simply by seeing what percentage of people who've tried the drug have a permanently diminished fear or anxiety response. I don't know of any official figures but from anecdata, I'd say that they don't.

firethief 10y ago

2 would be a miracle drug; the penicillin of psychiatry. A lot of people have long-term problems with excessive fear and anxiety, and the drugs we do have to address these things on a neurochemical level are iffy in efficacy and side effects can range into the disturbing.

TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago

Traditional antidepressents are like the friend who gives you a hug when you're feeling bad. It helps, but it's only designed to address how you're feeling. Psychedelics are more like the therapist who will help you realise why you feel that way, and allow you to look at things from a different perspective. When the immediate effect has worn off, antidepressents just return you to baseline, while psychedelics leave you with the memory of your experience and the ability to take that step back from yourself.

privateprofile 10y ago
>> When the immediate effect has worn off, antidepressents just return you to baseline Not really. When an antidepressant's effect wanes, most people experience severe withdrawal symptoms and side effects (e.g. hallucinations), and many patients find it impossible to cope with the withdrawal and live without the mind numbing effect. What most antidepressants will do is actually get you to a baseline state where you're feeling numb and having a mild existence of not experiencing happiness/calm or sadness/anxiety, but in a strange/empty place between the normal ups and downs of life.
- adn 10y ago
  Saying things like this is really really dangerous in my opinion, because in addition to being totally false it can discourage someone struggling with depression / anxiety / whatever from seeking treatment because they don't want to feel "numb." I'm sure I can speak for not just myself but many others here and say that without antidepressants I'd probably be dead, and the only part of life they've eliminated are the lowest valleys of depression. At one point I considered not taking them because I believed in this same misconception (I was afraid to lose my creativity), but I'm very glad now I did not give in to that fear. Please do not spread misinformation about potentially life-saving medication.
  - privateprofile 10y ago
    Medication can be necessary in extreme cases, to stabilize a patient whose thought processes are too disorganized to undergo therapy. This is the professional opinion that I've received from multiple therapists. More professional opinions at [2] and [3]. It's hard to believe that all the thousands of people that are prescribed antidepressants are going through severe (i.e. crippling) depression. I'm glad that you experienced only mild/no side-effects, but that it appears this is not the case with the majority of patients [1]. Someone struggling with depression/anxiety/whatever should seek treatment for the causes of their suffering, of course. However, the common mantra is that a pill will solve your ill, the fact that antidepressants are prescribed like candy (second only to antibiotics) should hint on this. The problem is that, at best, the pill will help you with symptoms and will not solve the underlying causes (often related to trauma handling or with how one deals with the hardships of life). [1] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidepressants-just-placebos-with-side-effects/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-antidep... [2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-antidepressants-work/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-antidepressant... [3] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/many-antidepressant-studies-found-tainted-by-pharma-company-influence/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/many-antidepressa...