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It's to analyse where riders actually go after being dropped off; for example understanding that if you want to go to building XYZ you have to get off here. Co

It's to analyse where riders actually go after being dropped off; for example understanding that if you want to go to building XYZ you have to get off here. Collecting data for self driving cars probably.

yladiz 10y ago
Yeah, but why does Uber need/care about that information? If I ask to be dropped off at X and walk a couple blocks to Y, Uber shouldn't care. I can understand the argument that maybe going to certain buildings you have to be dropped off at a specific spot, but that seems like a minor gain for something that's more than just a minor intrusion.
- duaneb 10y ago
  They don't need the information. They care because they are data driven and not personally culpable for their invasions of privacy. Why not collect everything you can without getting more permissions?
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    Data driven and being a giant Hoover isn't the same thing. One is about making decisions rationally. The other is about acquisition for acquisition sake. Personally, over never seen any evidence that Uber actually knows what it's doing except making a shit-ton of money. Even the self-drivIng car strikes me more as a sideffext of having a bunch of money they needed to spend and it won the rock-paper-scissors contest against rockets. Doubly so for the "ME TOO!" Doordash / Postmates competitor.
    - pinewurst 10y ago
      There's no evidence that Uber makes a shit-ton of money. What evidence exists, points the other way: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/11/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-one-understanding-ubers-bleak-operating-economics.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/11/can-uber-ever-deliver... http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-two-understanding-ubers-uncompetitive-costs.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/can-uber-ever-deliver...
      - jonathankoren 10y ago
        I stand corrected. It was clear that all these were attempts to extract additional revenue from their existing user base and infrastructure, and weren't very targeted, but for some reason I thought this due to a combination of flattening profits in an grow-at-all-costs VC environment, and being drunk on money. (Google is a company that is drunk on money.) Well... I still think Uber is drunk on money. Just VC money. And I'm sure that if Uber does implode, Travis will still come out a hundred-millionare and a reputation of being a business genius, even though he never actually turned the growth into a successful sustainable business. Kind of like Sean Parker and Napster. https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/12/01/2180647/the-taxi-unicorns-new-clothes/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/12/01/2180647/the-taxi-unic...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - baddox 10y ago
    You seem to be implying that they are violating privacy just for the heck of it. That's ignoring the very obvious value (even to customers) of this specific type of data. As the other commenter mentioned, knowing where humans choose to be dropped off when heading to a specific location is of obvious value.
    - visakanv 10y ago
      > You seem to be implying that they are violating privacy just for the heck of it. Why not both? Why not collect all the information you possibly can, whether or not you immediately see obvious value to it, and then find ways to justify it later?
      - twblalock 10y ago
        > Why not collect all the information you possibly can, whether or not you immediately see obvious value to it, and then find ways to justify it later? Because it's non-trivial and it costs a lot of money to do that, in terms of engineers' salaries, storage, etc.
        visakanv 10y ago
        > it costs a lot of money to do that Well they _have_ raised $15,000,000,000 in cash: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/dealbook/why-uber-keeps-raising-billions.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/dealbook/why-uber...
        twblalock 10y ago
        Well-run companies don't waste money just because they are flush with cash -- especially not when that cash represents board members who want their investment to pay off, not be frittered away on something with no business value.
      - baddox 10y ago
        I'm not claiming that they don't collect as much data as possible including data with no immediate use. Perhaps they do. I don't know. I'm claiming that this instance does not appear to demonstrate them doing so.
- bastawhiz 10y ago
  (Uber engineer here) The data is used for (or can be used for) a number of practical and important purposes. These are some examples of what we do as well as what we could do with such data: - Fighting fraud - Improving "suggested pickup" locations - Improvements around POOL (we'd rather suggest a location that's easy to pick up from than one that's unsafe) - Figuring out what side of the street you end up on (we can do a better job of choosing a route if we know you're able to get out of the car safely) - Optimizing pickups and dropoffs around events or certain times of the day or week (Caltrain riders: imagine if we suggested pickups at 5th and Townsend instead of 4th and King during rush hour. Much easier to find your driver and prevents congestion) - Dropping riders off closer to the "correct" entrance to their building - Dropping riders off in a location that's easier for the driver to depart from without making the rider walk too far (e.g., instead of getting trapped in a weird road or parking lot) - Analyze where riders ask drivers to make stops mid-trip and make better experiences around that. As far as trust and safety goes, we can avoid charging you if your driver was looking for you at the wrong location and gave up. We can better see where you were actually dropped off at, if your driver lies and leaves the app running after you've left the car. Leave your phone in the driver's car, and we can potentially do more than just put you in touch with them. Individual users' data is very closely guarded internally. It's immensely difficult to look at user data without specific access. Overwhelmingly, this data is queried in aggregate and fed into machine learning systems. The risk of abuse is exceptionally low.
  - visakanv 10y ago
    > Individual users' data is very closely guarded internally. It's immensely difficult to look at user data without specific access. Overwhelmingly, this data is queried in aggregate and fed into machine learning systems. The risk of abuse is exceptionally low. But so you're saying it's possible? Somebody with high enough access at Uber might be able to stalk an ex-girlfriend and follow her home? Getting into trouble for it of course, but it wouldn't matter after a murder-suicide? Statistically improbable I know, but that's the sort of thing that people worry about
    - joesb 10y ago
      > But so you're saying it's possible? People with access to hardware can probably do anything if they really want to. People at the bank can remove all your money in the account by going directly into the database as well.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
op00to 10y ago
Great! Why not allow people to opt out of the enhanced location gathering? I'll continue the old fashioned way of telling my driver where I want to go, and retain my small shred of privacy. People who are unable to navigate the big scary world by themselves can allow Uber to collect data and drop them off where they want to go. Just let me opt out.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

yladiz 10y ago

Yeah, but why does Uber need/care about that information? If I ask to be dropped off at X and walk a couple blocks to Y, Uber shouldn't care. I can understand the argument that maybe going to certain buildings you have to be dropped off at a specific spot, but that seems like a minor gain for something that's more than just a minor intrusion.

duaneb 10y ago
They don't need the information. They care because they are data driven and not personally culpable for their invasions of privacy. Why not collect everything you can without getting more permissions?
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  Data driven and being a giant Hoover isn't the same thing. One is about making decisions rationally. The other is about acquisition for acquisition sake. Personally, over never seen any evidence that Uber actually knows what it's doing except making a shit-ton of money. Even the self-drivIng car strikes me more as a sideffext of having a bunch of money they needed to spend and it won the rock-paper-scissors contest against rockets. Doubly so for the "ME TOO!" Doordash / Postmates competitor.
  - pinewurst 10y ago
    There's no evidence that Uber makes a shit-ton of money. What evidence exists, points the other way: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/11/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-one-understanding-ubers-bleak-operating-economics.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/11/can-uber-ever-deliver... http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-two-understanding-ubers-uncompetitive-costs.html http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/12/can-uber-ever-deliver...
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      I stand corrected. It was clear that all these were attempts to extract additional revenue from their existing user base and infrastructure, and weren't very targeted, but for some reason I thought this due to a combination of flattening profits in an grow-at-all-costs VC environment, and being drunk on money. (Google is a company that is drunk on money.) Well... I still think Uber is drunk on money. Just VC money. And I'm sure that if Uber does implode, Travis will still come out a hundred-millionare and a reputation of being a business genius, even though he never actually turned the growth into a successful sustainable business. Kind of like Sean Parker and Napster. https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/12/01/2180647/the-taxi-unicorns-new-clothes/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/12/01/2180647/the-taxi-unic...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- baddox 10y ago
  You seem to be implying that they are violating privacy just for the heck of it. That's ignoring the very obvious value (even to customers) of this specific type of data. As the other commenter mentioned, knowing where humans choose to be dropped off when heading to a specific location is of obvious value.
  - visakanv 10y ago
    > You seem to be implying that they are violating privacy just for the heck of it. Why not both? Why not collect all the information you possibly can, whether or not you immediately see obvious value to it, and then find ways to justify it later?
    - twblalock 10y ago
      > Why not collect all the information you possibly can, whether or not you immediately see obvious value to it, and then find ways to justify it later? Because it's non-trivial and it costs a lot of money to do that, in terms of engineers' salaries, storage, etc.
      - visakanv 10y ago
        > it costs a lot of money to do that Well they _have_ raised $15,000,000,000 in cash: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/dealbook/why-uber-keeps-raising-billions.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/dealbook/why-uber...
        twblalock 10y ago
        Well-run companies don't waste money just because they are flush with cash -- especially not when that cash represents board members who want their investment to pay off, not be frittered away on something with no business value.
    - baddox 10y ago
      I'm not claiming that they don't collect as much data as possible including data with no immediate use. Perhaps they do. I don't know. I'm claiming that this instance does not appear to demonstrate them doing so.
bastawhiz 10y ago
(Uber engineer here) The data is used for (or can be used for) a number of practical and important purposes. These are some examples of what we do as well as what we could do with such data: - Fighting fraud - Improving "suggested pickup" locations - Improvements around POOL (we'd rather suggest a location that's easy to pick up from than one that's unsafe) - Figuring out what side of the street you end up on (we can do a better job of choosing a route if we know you're able to get out of the car safely) - Optimizing pickups and dropoffs around events or certain times of the day or week (Caltrain riders: imagine if we suggested pickups at 5th and Townsend instead of 4th and King during rush hour. Much easier to find your driver and prevents congestion) - Dropping riders off closer to the "correct" entrance to their building - Dropping riders off in a location that's easier for the driver to depart from without making the rider walk too far (e.g., instead of getting trapped in a weird road or parking lot) - Analyze where riders ask drivers to make stops mid-trip and make better experiences around that. As far as trust and safety goes, we can avoid charging you if your driver was looking for you at the wrong location and gave up. We can better see where you were actually dropped off at, if your driver lies and leaves the app running after you've left the car. Leave your phone in the driver's car, and we can potentially do more than just put you in touch with them. Individual users' data is very closely guarded internally. It's immensely difficult to look at user data without specific access. Overwhelmingly, this data is queried in aggregate and fed into machine learning systems. The risk of abuse is exceptionally low.
- visakanv 10y ago
  > Individual users' data is very closely guarded internally. It's immensely difficult to look at user data without specific access. Overwhelmingly, this data is queried in aggregate and fed into machine learning systems. The risk of abuse is exceptionally low. But so you're saying it's possible? Somebody with high enough access at Uber might be able to stalk an ex-girlfriend and follow her home? Getting into trouble for it of course, but it wouldn't matter after a murder-suicide? Statistically improbable I know, but that's the sort of thing that people worry about
  - joesb 10y ago
    > But so you're saying it's possible? People with access to hardware can probably do anything if they really want to. People at the bank can remove all your money in the account by going directly into the database as well.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

op00to 10y ago

Great! Why not allow people to opt out of the enhanced location gathering? I'll continue the old fashioned way of telling my driver where I want to go, and retain my small shred of privacy. People who are unable to navigate the big scary world by themselves can allow Uber to collect data and drop them off where they want to go. Just let me opt out.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]