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> people go around denying that the invasion of the Crimea was really and invasion The USA invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and never had any consequences over it.

kafkaesq 10y ago
The "Whaddabout X?" response (that is, countering mention of an unpleasant topic by completely changing the subject) is one of the classic misdirection techniques that have, unfortunately, become so popular in recent years.
- rahrahrah 10y ago
  The "whataddabout x response" response has also become popular in recent years. It allows one side to do whatever they want, and at the same time call out those things when the other side does it. That one side did a bad thing doesn't make that thing less bad when the other side does it, true. But somehow I care a little bit less when you call someone out on the thing you just did. I'm an impartial observer here in the sense that I'm not american or russian (in fact, culturally I'm practically american). But when you say "bla bla Crimea" I think... yeah... Iraq... that's what countries do.
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    All I can say is, it's not about "calling people out". It's about finding out (and at least attempting to come to rough agreement on) what actually happened. Did 3,000 or members of various branches of the Russian armed forces slip over the border, not-so-covertly, in late February and early March of 2014 to enforce the expulsion of Ukrainian government authorities, or did they not? Did their surrogates in Eastern Ukraine manage to take down a civilian airliner (inadvertently, but that's beside the point) -- and top it off by interfering with the investigation -- or did they not? You know, simple, blameless, matters of objective reality like that. To which "What about Iraq?" response really aren't very helpful. Or as Trump surrogate Scottie Nell Hughes put in the The Diane Rehm Show, on NPR, earlier today: “It’s kind of like looking at ratings or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth or not true. There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts.”
    - rahrahrah 10y ago
      Ok I hear you. Maybe I just lashed out too quickly. You're right that when you point out something like "some people deny that Crimea was an invasion", saying "the other side did X" adds nothing. But I guess that I find the hypocrisy so disgusting that I go out of my way to add it to conversations, even when not directly related :-/
      - kafkaesq 10y ago
        Agreed, there's no end of hypocrisy and double standards, on all sides, all around. The only way I know to counter it is... to try not to echo it (as often as I may feel tempted to do so).

kafkaesq 10y ago

The "Whaddabout X?" response (that is, countering mention of an unpleasant topic by completely changing the subject) is one of the classic misdirection techniques that have, unfortunately, become so popular in recent years.

rahrahrah 10y ago
The "whataddabout x response" response has also become popular in recent years. It allows one side to do whatever they want, and at the same time call out those things when the other side does it. That one side did a bad thing doesn't make that thing less bad when the other side does it, true. But somehow I care a little bit less when you call someone out on the thing you just did. I'm an impartial observer here in the sense that I'm not american or russian (in fact, culturally I'm practically american). But when you say "bla bla Crimea" I think... yeah... Iraq... that's what countries do.
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  All I can say is, it's not about "calling people out". It's about finding out (and at least attempting to come to rough agreement on) what actually happened. Did 3,000 or members of various branches of the Russian armed forces slip over the border, not-so-covertly, in late February and early March of 2014 to enforce the expulsion of Ukrainian government authorities, or did they not? Did their surrogates in Eastern Ukraine manage to take down a civilian airliner (inadvertently, but that's beside the point) -- and top it off by interfering with the investigation -- or did they not? You know, simple, blameless, matters of objective reality like that. To which "What about Iraq?" response really aren't very helpful. Or as Trump surrogate Scottie Nell Hughes put in the The Diane Rehm Show, on NPR, earlier today: “It’s kind of like looking at ratings or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth or not true. There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts.”
  - rahrahrah 10y ago
    Ok I hear you. Maybe I just lashed out too quickly. You're right that when you point out something like "some people deny that Crimea was an invasion", saying "the other side did X" adds nothing. But I guess that I find the hypocrisy so disgusting that I go out of my way to add it to conversations, even when not directly related :-/
    - kafkaesq 10y ago
      Agreed, there's no end of hypocrisy and double standards, on all sides, all around. The only way I know to counter it is... to try not to echo it (as often as I may feel tempted to do so).