4 ms·

But the whole point in this debate is that Flash is also, for better or worse, an industry standard.

by boredguy8 16y ago

pohl 16y ago
Is there a specification? I think "de facto standard" is a more appropriate phrase for Flash.
- vetinari 16y ago
  Yes, there is (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf/ http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf/). It is even available gratis (H.264 specification is not).
  - blasdel 16y ago
    Flash isn't an open standard by any useful definition. Sure they specified the container format and data structures (just like with the MS Office formats), but everybody had figured that part out a long time ago because it's obvious and easy to capitalize on by developing an extractor. The runtime APIs are incredibly hard to reverse-engineer, comprise the vast bulk of the Flash implementation, and are the entire reason for the plugin's instability.
  - kierank 16y ago
    H.264 specification is available gratis: http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.264-200903-S/en http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.264-200903-S/en
    - vetinari 16y ago
      I stand corrected, thanks.
  - pohl 16y ago
    Interesting, but I don't see how one could create a complete implementation without a spec for the Sorensen Spark codec.
    - wmf 16y ago
      Sorenson Spark == H.263 (not a typo), which is documented. The problem with Flash is VP6, although FFMPEG reverse engineered it.
      - vetinari 16y ago
        Actually, it is based on a draft h.263, not the final h.263. One of the older flash specification did document it. The svq3 specification was removed from swf specs around time it was made available under more liberal license (Sorenson probably didn't agree with wider specs availability).
    - kierank 16y ago
      FFmpeg has reverse engineered it and there is an open source decoder and some documentation.
jsz0 16y ago
That's a fair point. I think that's more or less how Google approaches it even though they are not fans of closed web formats. I do think there is a world of difference between a big complex closed platform exclusively available from Adobe and H.264 which has a variety of encoders/decoders available from multiple license holders. I seem to recall in the past Adobe has licensed in Flash to Nokia in almost the same way. Nokia ported & optimized the code for some of their handsets (N900 and others) It would be interesting to know if Adobe offered a similar arrangement to Apple. That would completely debunk everything Apple has been saying if they had the flexibility to control the Flash implementation on the iPhone themselves.
olefoo 16y ago
Was an industry standard. And that's the point, flash has some real drawbacks and since it's not an open standard with multiple implementations, it stagnated while Adobe thought it had no competition.

But the whole point in this debate is that Flash is also, for better or worse, an industry standard.

pohl 16y ago

Is there a specification? I think "de facto standard" is a more appropriate phrase for Flash.

vetinari 16y ago
Yes, there is (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf/ http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf/). It is even available gratis (H.264 specification is not).
- blasdel 16y ago
  Flash isn't an open standard by any useful definition. Sure they specified the container format and data structures (just like with the MS Office formats), but everybody had figured that part out a long time ago because it's obvious and easy to capitalize on by developing an extractor. The runtime APIs are incredibly hard to reverse-engineer, comprise the vast bulk of the Flash implementation, and are the entire reason for the plugin's instability.
- kierank 16y ago
  H.264 specification is available gratis: http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.264-200903-S/en http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.264-200903-S/en
  - vetinari 16y ago
    I stand corrected, thanks.
- pohl 16y ago
  Interesting, but I don't see how one could create a complete implementation without a spec for the Sorensen Spark codec.
  - wmf 16y ago
    Sorenson Spark == H.263 (not a typo), which is documented. The problem with Flash is VP6, although FFMPEG reverse engineered it.
    - vetinari 16y ago
      Actually, it is based on a draft h.263, not the final h.263. One of the older flash specification did document it. The svq3 specification was removed from swf specs around time it was made available under more liberal license (Sorenson probably didn't agree with wider specs availability).
  - kierank 16y ago
    FFmpeg has reverse engineered it and there is an open source decoder and some documentation.

jsz0 16y ago

That's a fair point. I think that's more or less how Google approaches it even though they are not fans of closed web formats. I do think there is a world of difference between a big complex closed platform exclusively available from Adobe and H.264 which has a variety of encoders/decoders available from multiple license holders. I seem to recall in the past Adobe has licensed in Flash to Nokia in almost the same way. Nokia ported & optimized the code for some of their handsets (N900 and others) It would be interesting to know if Adobe offered a similar arrangement to Apple. That would completely debunk everything Apple has been saying if they had the flexibility to control the Flash implementation on the iPhone themselves.

olefoo 16y ago

Was an industry standard. And that's the point, flash has some real drawbacks and since it's not an open standard with multiple implementations, it stagnated while Adobe thought it had no competition.