7 ms·

I think it depends a lot on the specifics. Of course, there are certainly lots of Americans who are both poorer than the author and work harder. But in the US,

I think it depends a lot on the specifics. Of course, there are certainly lots of Americans who are both poorer than the author and work harder. But in the US, the very poorest people tend to be those who don't work at all, or only work part-time. People who live their whole life in a small town with one or two big employers, which move away when the economy crashes; people whose skills go out-of-date, and can't afford a retraining program; people who may be hard workers, but just really suck at interviewing, and always get rejected; people who want to work more, but their employer only gives them a few odd hours a day, and no one else wants to hire them when their schedule is unreliable; people who get job offers in other cities, but can't afford to move. This underclass doesn't work that many hours, and some would call them "lazy", but I think it's usually more like despair. It's terribly depressing to be broke, to not know if you can do anything other people see as valuable, and to have nothing better to do than watch TV or play video games.

cmdrfred 10y ago
I come from poverty. There is a big difference between poor and working poor. The poor get handouts, the working poor get fines because they can't afford Obamacare. Then people wonder why the poor don't struggle their way to working poor.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Whoever downvoted this comment doesn't understand it at all. The working poor are a revenue source. By keeping people indebted, they remain predictable consumers and fixed-income assets, like a human bond. The impoverished are effectively trapped by the welfare system itself, because it reduces benefits as incomes rise at a faster rate than can be made up by the equivalent amount of work. If the minimum wage was a living wage, like in Australia, then this wouldn't be a problem. But instead American welfare/min-wage clearly incentivizes staying just poor enough to keep getting benefits, or else you are actively making yourself poorer by working more. This is why so many Walmart employees are on food stamps.
  - jacalata 10y ago
    > the poor get handouts, the working poor get fines > many Walmart employees are on food stamps. Are you implying that Walmart employees are not 'working poor', or is the first sentence a dramatic over-generalization that doesn't contribute to the conversation?
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      Minimum wage Walmart employees are often working poor. Poverty depends on perspective. Most Revolution-Era Americans were living in what we today would call extreme poverty. But you can have a tv and a smartphone today and still be quite poor, because of the difference in consumer cost between things we need and things we don't need. www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/17/the-stuff-we-really-need-is-getting-more-expensive-other-stuff-is-getting-cheaper
      - jacalata 10y ago
        Yes, I agree that Walmart employees are the working poor. I don't understand how you can recognise that and also argue for the validity of this statement >There is a big difference between poor and working poor. The poor get handouts, the working poor get fines because they can't afford Obamacare. Then people wonder why the poor don't struggle their way to working poor.
        WillPostForFood 10y ago
        I suspect you guys agree. I don't think he is saying there is a big difference in that they are both poor. The difference is that the poor are are being rewarded (transfer payments) while the working poor are being punished (they have to work, but still get fined, and pay taxes).
        rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
        Poor, working poor, lower middle class, they're all crude definitions for people who are struggling. Arguing over who is more or less struggling or deserving is to play the oldest rich person's game of fight-for-scraps.
- brazzledazzle 10y ago
  I also come from poverty and in my experience there can be a dangerous area making just enough money to be disqualified from receiving assistance where you're just a few mistakes or irresponsible decisions away from having serious money issues. But there are also a whole lot of people that qualify for all kinds of assistance and don't ever even bother to check because they are hard working people and take pride in that. I think the solution is pretty simple: raise that income maximum well past where you would normally put it and make it trivial (like sign up on the internet trivial) for anyone who qualifies to receive assistance and make it just as simple to stop receiving it. Someone should be able to sign up and receive assistance on the next distribution cycle. This makes it easy for people in that dangerous spot to get assistance because you remove it and those with pride can get it quickly, easily and as temporarily as they want with no humiliation. Here's why: Today you must commit a lot of time and effort as well suffer humiliation to get assistance. You have to stand in line, wait in a waiting area, fill out forms and finally talk to a worker about what a fuck up you are. If you have kids and can't get/afford a babysitter your kids are right there with you losing their minds. If you can't take time off work you don't get assistance because this government office is closed in the evening and on weekends. It may be hard to imagine something worse than the DMV but that's exactly what this is. And then you have to deal with doing it all over again because they are looking for the tiniest possible reason to turn off your assistance and force you to appeal. Why is it so painful? Because welfare queens, drug dealers, drug users, lifers and frauds can't be allowed to get assistance even if the cost in terms of dollars and opportunity are much greater to prevent them from doing so. We've let it become about who we deem "deserves" it rather than a simple monetary calculation.
bodyfour 10y ago
The historical trends of leisure-time vs income are very interesting. Lots of different economic forces at work there -- http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21600989-why-rich-now-have-less-leisure-poor-nice-work-if-you-can-get-out http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21600989...
faceyspacey 10y ago
That view that it it's "terribly depressing to be broke" and all the despair the poor in America feel because they can create no value could only be thought up by us smug hacker news software creators. I know first hand that much of the poor are content to live off the government, never had any aspirations and ultimately don't need much to survive and be content enough. They don't know what they don't know and therefore they don't suffer from the despair of not being the next Steve jobs. That was never on their list. They are truly ignorant enough to be content with video games. I'm not talking everyone but this probably is the majority. Things work and all you need is to be able to hold a minimum wage job for a few years at a time and when you get fired you can take a few years off while another friend or family member is on deck, meanwhile you're contributing food stamps the whole time, 6 months of an unemployment check, money from a few scams here and there, electricity bill deductions and many other such benefits you can get if you are below the poverty line. These are all meaningful contributions you can contribute well past the 6 months of paid unemployment. You have to understand you also have old people in the household collecting social security at $1k per month. There are not only other people not working, but other non-workers coming up with money and resources. It becomes just as normal for a working-age male to not be working as grandma. After all we aren't talking 1 person or couple cramped into an over priced San Francisco apartment. In short, the family doesn't need as much money and everyone bands together, and can go for a very long time bringing in very little money. And though totally in the hands of the "public" health care system whose bills they will never pay if they get into an accident, they are more than content with tv and stolen movies/shows via apps like "ShowBox" until that happens, and even after. They have near zero ounce of fight in them for anything more, certainly not to be the prolific CEO or CTO of a tech company. That's far out of their field of vision. I am one that believes to not aspire to something is not healthy. So for now ignoring the other psychological issues surrounding the more privileged all feeling disproportionate pressure to be somebody, I'll just say the opposite extreme we are discussing now is worse and it's out of ignorance. An ignorance most here can't understand or have forgotten. A true "ignorance is bliss" syndrome. To us it may look like that as a result they are content to live in squalor. The truth is the squalor of those living standards have risen. It all just feels normal to them. What I call "poverty trap sweet spots" certainly do exist in America.
- 10y ago
icantdrive55 10y ago
"to not know if you can do anything other people see as valuable" 1. I have never met a rich person that could offer me anything other than a loan. Someting they don't like to do. (I live in Marin County. The place your founder will end up if successful. These people can't change a tire. They are as useful as the proverbial wart on a toad. They have one ability most poor don't have; they are masters at taking money from the poor/middle class and getting in their bank account. They are also masters at hiding their lack ethics/morality--for the most part. Some are born rich. Some have high barriers to entry--like a medical degree, in a dubious speciality. The drug dealing Psychiatrist come to mind? My neighbors would be the first to perish in a catastrophe. I honestly wonder what skills they offer society. They always fall back on we provide the jobs. Jobs that usually don't have a future, and turn the poor into working poor. Many work for for profit housing, for profit education, and for profit medical system.(All services that I feel shouldn't have a profit motive.) They are Titans in the financial world. So few provide livable jobs. Many destroy jobs, for their own enrichment, But the majority? I can't figure out what in the hell they do. I know their wives, and kids are misserable. 2. I have never met a poor person who couldn't fix my car, repair my house, repair my website, etc. I don't think I have ever met a poor person that didn't have more skills than my neighbors. They just don't know how to capitalize on them. Or, will never be given the opportunity to capitalize on any of their skills, or good ideas. They will always be at the mercy of the people with money. Usually a a seed fund consisting of a few thousand dollars on a credit card at 29%. Some days, it enrages me. I do know this, I haven't found one who I could stomach being friends with. It's not out of envy either; I just don't like the hypocrisy, and really question their ethics, and morality. I often picture Chea Guevara riding that motorcyle, looking at the disparity of wealth; and feel his rage. My rage has been brewing for years. I don't have a point, other than the wealthy, at least my neighbors, don't possess viable skills. 99% would be living pay check to pay check, or homeless, if not for that understanding wealthy father, who usually really helped out that aimless kid who just returned from Europe and still couldn't figure out what they wanted to do. And all the second chances that most of us only get one--if we are lucky. Ask yourself this; how many bad ideas from the wealthy are we forced to listen to? They have the platform, but their ideas always leave out a few pertinent variables; like it will take a lot of seed capital to do, along with a free house, a free workspace, free legal advice, and Insurance. Their ideas always seem lofty. An idea only a wealthy dreamer could begin to pontificate about?
sedachv 10y ago
> people whose skills go out-of-date, and can't afford a retraining program United States job training programs do not work - they are a 1980s Reagan-era privatization scam to funnel tax dollars to private scam "training" and "job" centers that do not provide effective training or result in any meaningful employment outcomes: http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140100040300 http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=8014010004030... Job training needs to be stopped being mentioned as a realistic or viable option - it is a Republican distraction to free public universal vocational and university schooling in certified and accountable programs with qualified instructors: "why do we need free trade schools, we already have job training!"
- apsec112 10y ago
  Sorry, I think there's a semantic confusion here. By "retraining", I was also referring to vocational education and trade schools in general, not just a specific US government program. It sounds like you're not anti-retraining (as I was using the word), you just want it to be reformed and brought more under federal control.

cmdrfred 10y ago

I come from poverty. There is a big difference between poor and working poor. The poor get handouts, the working poor get fines because they can't afford Obamacare. Then people wonder why the poor don't struggle their way to working poor.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Whoever downvoted this comment doesn't understand it at all. The working poor are a revenue source. By keeping people indebted, they remain predictable consumers and fixed-income assets, like a human bond. The impoverished are effectively trapped by the welfare system itself, because it reduces benefits as incomes rise at a faster rate than can be made up by the equivalent amount of work. If the minimum wage was a living wage, like in Australia, then this wouldn't be a problem. But instead American welfare/min-wage clearly incentivizes staying just poor enough to keep getting benefits, or else you are actively making yourself poorer by working more. This is why so many Walmart employees are on food stamps.
- jacalata 10y ago
  > the poor get handouts, the working poor get fines > many Walmart employees are on food stamps. Are you implying that Walmart employees are not 'working poor', or is the first sentence a dramatic over-generalization that doesn't contribute to the conversation?
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    Minimum wage Walmart employees are often working poor. Poverty depends on perspective. Most Revolution-Era Americans were living in what we today would call extreme poverty. But you can have a tv and a smartphone today and still be quite poor, because of the difference in consumer cost between things we need and things we don't need. www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/17/the-stuff-we-really-need-is-getting-more-expensive-other-stuff-is-getting-cheaper
    - jacalata 10y ago
      Yes, I agree that Walmart employees are the working poor. I don't understand how you can recognise that and also argue for the validity of this statement >There is a big difference between poor and working poor. The poor get handouts, the working poor get fines because they can't afford Obamacare. Then people wonder why the poor don't struggle their way to working poor.
      - WillPostForFood 10y ago
        I suspect you guys agree. I don't think he is saying there is a big difference in that they are both poor. The difference is that the poor are are being rewarded (transfer payments) while the working poor are being punished (they have to work, but still get fined, and pay taxes).
        rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
        Poor, working poor, lower middle class, they're all crude definitions for people who are struggling. Arguing over who is more or less struggling or deserving is to play the oldest rich person's game of fight-for-scraps.
brazzledazzle 10y ago
I also come from poverty and in my experience there can be a dangerous area making just enough money to be disqualified from receiving assistance where you're just a few mistakes or irresponsible decisions away from having serious money issues. But there are also a whole lot of people that qualify for all kinds of assistance and don't ever even bother to check because they are hard working people and take pride in that. I think the solution is pretty simple: raise that income maximum well past where you would normally put it and make it trivial (like sign up on the internet trivial) for anyone who qualifies to receive assistance and make it just as simple to stop receiving it. Someone should be able to sign up and receive assistance on the next distribution cycle. This makes it easy for people in that dangerous spot to get assistance because you remove it and those with pride can get it quickly, easily and as temporarily as they want with no humiliation. Here's why: Today you must commit a lot of time and effort as well suffer humiliation to get assistance. You have to stand in line, wait in a waiting area, fill out forms and finally talk to a worker about what a fuck up you are. If you have kids and can't get/afford a babysitter your kids are right there with you losing their minds. If you can't take time off work you don't get assistance because this government office is closed in the evening and on weekends. It may be hard to imagine something worse than the DMV but that's exactly what this is. And then you have to deal with doing it all over again because they are looking for the tiniest possible reason to turn off your assistance and force you to appeal. Why is it so painful? Because welfare queens, drug dealers, drug users, lifers and frauds can't be allowed to get assistance even if the cost in terms of dollars and opportunity are much greater to prevent them from doing so. We've let it become about who we deem "deserves" it rather than a simple monetary calculation.

bodyfour 10y ago

The historical trends of leisure-time vs income are very interesting. Lots of different economic forces at work there -- http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21600989-why-rich-now-have-less-leisure-poor-nice-work-if-you-can-get-out http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21600989...

faceyspacey 10y ago

That view that it it's "terribly depressing to be broke" and all the despair the poor in America feel because they can create no value could only be thought up by us smug hacker news software creators. I know first hand that much of the poor are content to live off the government, never had any aspirations and ultimately don't need much to survive and be content enough. They don't know what they don't know and therefore they don't suffer from the despair of not being the next Steve jobs. That was never on their list. They are truly ignorant enough to be content with video games. I'm not talking everyone but this probably is the majority. Things work and all you need is to be able to hold a minimum wage job for a few years at a time and when you get fired you can take a few years off while another friend or family member is on deck, meanwhile you're contributing food stamps the whole time, 6 months of an unemployment check, money from a few scams here and there, electricity bill deductions and many other such benefits you can get if you are below the poverty line. These are all meaningful contributions you can contribute well past the 6 months of paid unemployment. You have to understand you also have old people in the household collecting social security at $1k per month. There are not only other people not working, but other non-workers coming up with money and resources. It becomes just as normal for a working-age male to not be working as grandma. After all we aren't talking 1 person or couple cramped into an over priced San Francisco apartment. In short, the family doesn't need as much money and everyone bands together, and can go for a very long time bringing in very little money. And though totally in the hands of the "public" health care system whose bills they will never pay if they get into an accident, they are more than content with tv and stolen movies/shows via apps like "ShowBox" until that happens, and even after. They have near zero ounce of fight in them for anything more, certainly not to be the prolific CEO or CTO of a tech company. That's far out of their field of vision. I am one that believes to not aspire to something is not healthy. So for now ignoring the other psychological issues surrounding the more privileged all feeling disproportionate pressure to be somebody, I'll just say the opposite extreme we are discussing now is worse and it's out of ignorance. An ignorance most here can't understand or have forgotten. A true "ignorance is bliss" syndrome. To us it may look like that as a result they are content to live in squalor. The truth is the squalor of those living standards have risen. It all just feels normal to them. What I call "poverty trap sweet spots" certainly do exist in America.

10y ago

icantdrive55 10y ago

"to not know if you can do anything other people see as valuable" 1. I have never met a rich person that could offer me anything other than a loan. Someting they don't like to do. (I live in Marin County. The place your founder will end up if successful. These people can't change a tire. They are as useful as the proverbial wart on a toad. They have one ability most poor don't have; they are masters at taking money from the poor/middle class and getting in their bank account. They are also masters at hiding their lack ethics/morality--for the most part. Some are born rich. Some have high barriers to entry--like a medical degree, in a dubious speciality. The drug dealing Psychiatrist come to mind? My neighbors would be the first to perish in a catastrophe. I honestly wonder what skills they offer society. They always fall back on we provide the jobs. Jobs that usually don't have a future, and turn the poor into working poor. Many work for for profit housing, for profit education, and for profit medical system.(All services that I feel shouldn't have a profit motive.) They are Titans in the financial world. So few provide livable jobs. Many destroy jobs, for their own enrichment, But the majority? I can't figure out what in the hell they do. I know their wives, and kids are misserable. 2. I have never met a poor person who couldn't fix my car, repair my house, repair my website, etc. I don't think I have ever met a poor person that didn't have more skills than my neighbors. They just don't know how to capitalize on them. Or, will never be given the opportunity to capitalize on any of their skills, or good ideas. They will always be at the mercy of the people with money. Usually a a seed fund consisting of a few thousand dollars on a credit card at 29%. Some days, it enrages me. I do know this, I haven't found one who I could stomach being friends with. It's not out of envy either; I just don't like the hypocrisy, and really question their ethics, and morality. I often picture Chea Guevara riding that motorcyle, looking at the disparity of wealth; and feel his rage. My rage has been brewing for years. I don't have a point, other than the wealthy, at least my neighbors, don't possess viable skills. 99% would be living pay check to pay check, or homeless, if not for that understanding wealthy father, who usually really helped out that aimless kid who just returned from Europe and still couldn't figure out what they wanted to do. And all the second chances that most of us only get one--if we are lucky. Ask yourself this; how many bad ideas from the wealthy are we forced to listen to? They have the platform, but their ideas always leave out a few pertinent variables; like it will take a lot of seed capital to do, along with a free house, a free workspace, free legal advice, and Insurance. Their ideas always seem lofty. An idea only a wealthy dreamer could begin to pontificate about?

sedachv 10y ago

> people whose skills go out-of-date, and can't afford a retraining program United States job training programs do not work - they are a 1980s Reagan-era privatization scam to funnel tax dollars to private scam "training" and "job" centers that do not provide effective training or result in any meaningful employment outcomes: http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140100040300 http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=8014010004030... Job training needs to be stopped being mentioned as a realistic or viable option - it is a Republican distraction to free public universal vocational and university schooling in certified and accountable programs with qualified instructors: "why do we need free trade schools, we already have job training!"

apsec112 10y ago
Sorry, I think there's a semantic confusion here. By "retraining", I was also referring to vocational education and trade schools in general, not just a specific US government program. It sounds like you're not anti-retraining (as I was using the word), you just want it to be reformed and brought more under federal control.