3 ms·

I think the simplest solution to all of this is for you to ignore the outlandish claims, or at the very least pay attention only to the claims of senior and res

by tome 10y ago

I think the simplest solution to all of this is for you to ignore the outlandish claims, or at the very least pay attention only to the claims of senior and respectable Haskell propenents, such as Simons Peyton Jones and Marlow, Don Stewart, Lennart Augustsson, Neil Mitchell etc.. Otherwise you're simply allowing yourself to be gently trolled. By the way "if it compiles it works" is supposed to be somewhat tongue in cheek, as is "avoid success at all costs".

pron 10y ago
That's not a solution because my problem isn't with Haskell itself (and I do familiarize myself with the theory when I find it interesting, and I'm well aware that most of the researchers aren't like that), but with the tendency of people in the industry to market things so enthusiastically, that they basically encourage suspension of critical thinking (and this is doubly annoying when what they evangelize isn't something as cheap as a new profiler, but something as expensive as a whole new language with a new, unproven, programming paradigm). Ignoring it wouldn't solve the problem. And in case you think this isn't an actual problem, consider that over-excitement about promises that couldn't be kept has caused at least two "research winters" in CS: one in AI and one in formal methods. The industry started believing its own hype, academia didn't mind the extra funding, but when the industry ended up disappointed, funding dried completely and research slowed to a crawl.
- tome 10y ago
  So you think you are singlehandedly saving "the" industry from the insidious promotion of Haskell?
  - pron 10y ago
    Singlehandedly? Absolutely not. Why, am I the only Haskell skeptic you know? There are more on this page alone. There are even PLT researchers who warn against overselling results in PLT, and especially typed FP. And we're not saving the industry; the industry as a whole isn't suicidal and will never bet too much money on unproven technologies. The industry isn't so fragile, but research is. Given the amount of money in the industry, even small parts that do bet on unproven tech can cause a funding surge followed by a research winter when the disappointment hits. We're saving Haskell. If those who adopt Haskell do it with clear vision and not by believing some messianic claims, there would be no great disappointment and no research winter. Nothing is more dangerous to research than wild claims. You need to promise less and deliver more, not the other way around. And because the industry is competitive, it is actually quick to adopt ideas once they show actual significant benefit -- i.e., once they're ready. The industry adopted garbage collection almost overnight; it was almost 40 years after it had been invented, but almost immediately after it's been productized well enough to provide a significant advantage. If pure-FP is really the way to go in general-purpose programming, eventually the industry will adopt it in some well-productized form. Getting there does require some early adopters, but they're already here and overselling doesn't help to get more good ones. It helps to get precisely those adopters who will end up causing a research winter. ---- What bothers me in terms of harm to the industry is the waste caused by people switching from one language to another, rewriting libraries over and over and thinning out the effort. I think we're losing years of progress. But there's really nothing I can do about that because even if I can convince someone that a language that is 1% "better" than another does not justify the effort of porting libraries over, there are already too many languages and platforms around, and there's always the question of, so which few languages should we pick, and why should it be the ones you like and not the ones I like. Haskell actually does not contribute much to this problem because its adoption rate doesn't yet make a dent.

by tome 10y ago

pron 10y ago

That's not a solution because my problem isn't with Haskell itself (and I do familiarize myself with the theory when I find it interesting, and I'm well aware that most of the researchers aren't like that), but with the tendency of people in the industry to market things so enthusiastically, that they basically encourage suspension of critical thinking (and this is doubly annoying when what they evangelize isn't something as cheap as a new profiler, but something as expensive as a whole new language with a new, unproven, programming paradigm). Ignoring it wouldn't solve the problem. And in case you think this isn't an actual problem, consider that over-excitement about promises that couldn't be kept has caused at least two "research winters" in CS: one in AI and one in formal methods. The industry started believing its own hype, academia didn't mind the extra funding, but when the industry ended up disappointed, funding dried completely and research slowed to a crawl.

tome 10y ago
So you think you are singlehandedly saving "the" industry from the insidious promotion of Haskell?
- pron 10y ago
  Singlehandedly? Absolutely not. Why, am I the only Haskell skeptic you know? There are more on this page alone. There are even PLT researchers who warn against overselling results in PLT, and especially typed FP. And we're not saving the industry; the industry as a whole isn't suicidal and will never bet too much money on unproven technologies. The industry isn't so fragile, but research is. Given the amount of money in the industry, even small parts that do bet on unproven tech can cause a funding surge followed by a research winter when the disappointment hits. We're saving Haskell. If those who adopt Haskell do it with clear vision and not by believing some messianic claims, there would be no great disappointment and no research winter. Nothing is more dangerous to research than wild claims. You need to promise less and deliver more, not the other way around. And because the industry is competitive, it is actually quick to adopt ideas once they show actual significant benefit -- i.e., once they're ready. The industry adopted garbage collection almost overnight; it was almost 40 years after it had been invented, but almost immediately after it's been productized well enough to provide a significant advantage. If pure-FP is really the way to go in general-purpose programming, eventually the industry will adopt it in some well-productized form. Getting there does require some early adopters, but they're already here and overselling doesn't help to get more good ones. It helps to get precisely those adopters who will end up causing a research winter. ---- What bothers me in terms of harm to the industry is the waste caused by people switching from one language to another, rewriting libraries over and over and thinning out the effort. I think we're losing years of progress. But there's really nothing I can do about that because even if I can convince someone that a language that is 1% "better" than another does not justify the effort of porting libraries over, there are already too many languages and platforms around, and there's always the question of, so which few languages should we pick, and why should it be the ones you like and not the ones I like. Haskell actually does not contribute much to this problem because its adoption rate doesn't yet make a dent.