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I don't really want to comment - but I'd just say to anyone (including the writer of this article) to imagine someone artificially limiting the impact of your f

by volak 10y ago

I don't really want to comment - but I'd just say to anyone (including the writer of this article) to imagine someone artificially limiting the impact of your favorite platform of free expression. Hell just turn the mental corner and consider your arguments FOR net neutrality. Or try to recall your disappointment every time you read about some site being banned in China or Iran. To China and Iran - facebook is a "disruptive community." To use reddit's language. Its a sad moment in history that the people calling themselves liberals don't actually know what it means.

Mao_Zedang 10y ago
Like facebook maybe this is just them pivoting to countries like China and Iran?
freehunter 10y ago
It's more along the lines of fixing a bug in the system. It's not about flushing out an ideology like TD wants you to think. They're exploiting Reddits code to have more weight than similarly sized communities. Reddit is balancing that. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with these guys actively exploiting the voting system.
- Mao_Zedang 10y ago
  if (subreddit == "the_donald") fixTheBug() else notABug()
colechristensen 10y ago
The subreddit in question manipulates the algorithm in bad faith and bans any sort of dissent or disagreement. They're not attacking free expression but trying to reign in abuse of their platform. Nobody really knows what "liberal" means because it's been used in several very opposite ways in different times and places.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- volak 10y ago
  I don't buy the argument that they are exploiting anything - but I do recognize that their community is very overly active but I wouldn't call that exploiting
  - colechristensen 10y ago
    The vote totals aren't anything like any other subreddit has been. They were also using the pinning in a way no other subreddit did. Just google – the_donald upvote script – to get an idea. Several tools were released for users to upvote or downvote everything targeting a subreddit or user. It's a sort of grassroots vote manipulation scheme.
    - volak 10y ago
      Well I could write a r/hillaryclinton upvote script and post on gists in a few minutes - doesn't really prove anything. The only people who could have real evidence of rule breaking would be the admins and from the little we know we know the admins hate TD - if they are being botted they'd be gone already
      - colechristensen 10y ago
        You could; I'm not talking about the existence of such things but the prevalence. There probably wasn't much blatant botting, but a lot of mild botting which is much more difficult to detect and lives in a grey area.
  - chris11 10y ago
    One of the issues the admins were upset about was pizzagate. Basically they found some emails where Podesta mentioned pizza and cheese. So after a lot of time investigating they decided that Podesta and Clinton were deeply involved in a child sex trafficking ring centered a local D.C. pizzeria. There was an NYtimes story about how the owners been receiving death threats. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/technology/fact-check-this-pizzeria-is-not-a-child-trafficking-site.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/technology/fact-check-this.... This whole witch hunt/conspiracy started and kept going with trolls from the_donald. People getting death threats from getting doxxed on reddit threads should not happen. Also, during this trolls kept accusing spez of being a pedophile. While changing user comments is extremely inappropriate, I think that the_donald has some extremely toxic trolls. So I'm definitely ok with reddit admins shutting some of that activity down. I would have found it completely understandable if reddit had shut the_donald down with that with the whole pizzagate thing. But that sub has a ton of activity with a lot of politically active posters, and so I don't think reddit really wants to shut it down.
ajkjk 10y ago
The counterargument is that loopholes in the mechanics allowed the community in question to artificially limit the impact of everyone else's favorite platform of free expression. The charitable view is to call what's being done a bandaid to fix a broken mechanic. It's also not an understatement to say that the level of rule-breaking (doxxing, vote brigading, abuse, etc) from the community, sanctioned (or at least not nearly adequately curtailed) by its moderators, is probably justifiably grounds for banning the whole community (since it's failing to self-moderate) but that can't really happen because it would cause a much larger and more problematic fallout. The last sentence of your comment is ignorant and needlessly incendiary. I'm sure you'll find that the people you're talking about probably do know what it means. You can disagree with "people who identify as liberals but argue for different actions based on their best judgment than you do" (and there's plenty of fruitful discussions and arguments to be had around those judgments), without snidely saying that they're ignorant schmucks who've lost track of their purpose.
- volak 10y ago
  As a liberal - its been my view to respect and fight for anyone's right to say whatever they want, regardless of my own views. If there are bugs with the reddit platform that are being exploited, there would be no reason to "prevent stickied posts from showing on r/all"
  - ajkjk 10y ago
    It's pretty clearly explained in Spez's post that it's a loophole, not a bug. The loophole is that there's an override for how sticky posts show in /all, used to elevate topical events -- which was being abused, against the spirit of the override, by pretty much only that one subreddit, for different purposes. There is probably a technical solution to this but it's probably complicated and this bandaid gets the job done for now. But I think you knew that.
    - volak 10y ago
      The bandaid was to allow people to filter subs themselves (which is great). Writing code to target a specific community crosses the line
mediumdeviation 10y ago
> To China and Iran - facebook is a "disruptive community." To use reddit's language. There is a vast difference between the government banning you and reddit banning you (which they are not actually doing here, but for the sake of argument). You have the right to free expression. You do not have the right to free expression on someone else's platform. reddit is not the Internet - if reddit does not like what you say, you can set up your own space on the Internet. If the government does not like what you say, then there is literally no legal alternative. That's the difference. Oh, and stop confusing net neutrality with this issue. It's not the same.
- volak 10y ago
  Fiber lines are someone else's platform. If Comcast was limiting access to huffingtonpost.com it would be their right as its their platform. I don't think I'm confusing anything.
  - cmac2992 10y ago
    The fiber example is one of the big reason regulating broadband as a utility was important. It prevents this exact scenario
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- internaut 10y ago
  > There is a vast difference between the government banning you and reddit banning you (which they are not actually doing here, but for the sake of argument). It isn't all about public vs private. There is another frame to view this subject in which is shared culture. In China the majority of those running the firms agree with the government's positions on Internet use. In the USA, Washington and large parts of the media have identical political perspectives. The problem with this is insidious. Where you're surrounded by like minded people you grow kinds of assumptions that in another context are absolutely crazy. Recently for example I heard a university professor claim biological sex does not exist. Further he claimed all scientists believe that biological sex does not exist. This tends to happen in groups where dissenting opinion has been culled. Isolation does not generate balanced perspective. > You do not have the right to free expression on someone else's platform. reddit is not the Internet The problem with this reasoning is that the entire Net is private. The feeling of the public sphere is a kind of collective illusion similar to how we perceive the Net to be a 'space'. I would hope that doesn't mean the use of a server doesn't have to be contingent on what political views I held yesterday or today.

by volak 10y ago

Mao_Zedang 10y ago

Like facebook maybe this is just them pivoting to countries like China and Iran?

freehunter 10y ago

It's more along the lines of fixing a bug in the system. It's not about flushing out an ideology like TD wants you to think. They're exploiting Reddits code to have more weight than similarly sized communities. Reddit is balancing that. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with these guys actively exploiting the voting system.

Mao_Zedang 10y ago
if (subreddit == "the_donald") fixTheBug() else notABug()

colechristensen 10y ago

The subreddit in question manipulates the algorithm in bad faith and bans any sort of dissent or disagreement. They're not attacking free expression but trying to reign in abuse of their platform. Nobody really knows what "liberal" means because it's been used in several very opposite ways in different times and places.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
volak 10y ago
I don't buy the argument that they are exploiting anything - but I do recognize that their community is very overly active but I wouldn't call that exploiting
- colechristensen 10y ago
  The vote totals aren't anything like any other subreddit has been. They were also using the pinning in a way no other subreddit did. Just google – the_donald upvote script – to get an idea. Several tools were released for users to upvote or downvote everything targeting a subreddit or user. It's a sort of grassroots vote manipulation scheme.
  - volak 10y ago
    Well I could write a r/hillaryclinton upvote script and post on gists in a few minutes - doesn't really prove anything. The only people who could have real evidence of rule breaking would be the admins and from the little we know we know the admins hate TD - if they are being botted they'd be gone already
    - colechristensen 10y ago
      You could; I'm not talking about the existence of such things but the prevalence. There probably wasn't much blatant botting, but a lot of mild botting which is much more difficult to detect and lives in a grey area.
- chris11 10y ago
  One of the issues the admins were upset about was pizzagate. Basically they found some emails where Podesta mentioned pizza and cheese. So after a lot of time investigating they decided that Podesta and Clinton were deeply involved in a child sex trafficking ring centered a local D.C. pizzeria. There was an NYtimes story about how the owners been receiving death threats. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/technology/fact-check-this-pizzeria-is-not-a-child-trafficking-site.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/technology/fact-check-this.... This whole witch hunt/conspiracy started and kept going with trolls from the_donald. People getting death threats from getting doxxed on reddit threads should not happen. Also, during this trolls kept accusing spez of being a pedophile. While changing user comments is extremely inappropriate, I think that the_donald has some extremely toxic trolls. So I'm definitely ok with reddit admins shutting some of that activity down. I would have found it completely understandable if reddit had shut the_donald down with that with the whole pizzagate thing. But that sub has a ton of activity with a lot of politically active posters, and so I don't think reddit really wants to shut it down.

ajkjk 10y ago

The counterargument is that loopholes in the mechanics allowed the community in question to artificially limit the impact of everyone else's favorite platform of free expression. The charitable view is to call what's being done a bandaid to fix a broken mechanic. It's also not an understatement to say that the level of rule-breaking (doxxing, vote brigading, abuse, etc) from the community, sanctioned (or at least not nearly adequately curtailed) by its moderators, is probably justifiably grounds for banning the whole community (since it's failing to self-moderate) but that can't really happen because it would cause a much larger and more problematic fallout. The last sentence of your comment is ignorant and needlessly incendiary. I'm sure you'll find that the people you're talking about probably do know what it means. You can disagree with "people who identify as liberals but argue for different actions based on their best judgment than you do" (and there's plenty of fruitful discussions and arguments to be had around those judgments), without snidely saying that they're ignorant schmucks who've lost track of their purpose.

volak 10y ago
As a liberal - its been my view to respect and fight for anyone's right to say whatever they want, regardless of my own views. If there are bugs with the reddit platform that are being exploited, there would be no reason to "prevent stickied posts from showing on r/all"
- ajkjk 10y ago
  It's pretty clearly explained in Spez's post that it's a loophole, not a bug. The loophole is that there's an override for how sticky posts show in /all, used to elevate topical events -- which was being abused, against the spirit of the override, by pretty much only that one subreddit, for different purposes. There is probably a technical solution to this but it's probably complicated and this bandaid gets the job done for now. But I think you knew that.
  - volak 10y ago
    The bandaid was to allow people to filter subs themselves (which is great). Writing code to target a specific community crosses the line

mediumdeviation 10y ago

> To China and Iran - facebook is a "disruptive community." To use reddit's language. There is a vast difference between the government banning you and reddit banning you (which they are not actually doing here, but for the sake of argument). You have the right to free expression. You do not have the right to free expression on someone else's platform. reddit is not the Internet - if reddit does not like what you say, you can set up your own space on the Internet. If the government does not like what you say, then there is literally no legal alternative. That's the difference. Oh, and stop confusing net neutrality with this issue. It's not the same.

volak 10y ago
Fiber lines are someone else's platform. If Comcast was limiting access to huffingtonpost.com it would be their right as its their platform. I don't think I'm confusing anything.
- cmac2992 10y ago
  The fiber example is one of the big reason regulating broadband as a utility was important. It prevents this exact scenario
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
internaut 10y ago
> There is a vast difference between the government banning you and reddit banning you (which they are not actually doing here, but for the sake of argument). It isn't all about public vs private. There is another frame to view this subject in which is shared culture. In China the majority of those running the firms agree with the government's positions on Internet use. In the USA, Washington and large parts of the media have identical political perspectives. The problem with this is insidious. Where you're surrounded by like minded people you grow kinds of assumptions that in another context are absolutely crazy. Recently for example I heard a university professor claim biological sex does not exist. Further he claimed all scientists believe that biological sex does not exist. This tends to happen in groups where dissenting opinion has been culled. Isolation does not generate balanced perspective. > You do not have the right to free expression on someone else's platform. reddit is not the Internet The problem with this reasoning is that the entire Net is private. The feeling of the public sphere is a kind of collective illusion similar to how we perceive the Net to be a 'space'. I would hope that doesn't mean the use of a server doesn't have to be contingent on what political views I held yesterday or today.