5 ms·

By all means, this is not unique to Amazon - not that it makes it any better. I did a post-grad interview for Epic (epic.com - healthcare software) in a simila

by manacit 10y ago

By all means, this is not unique to Amazon - not that it makes it any better. I did a post-grad interview for Epic (epic.com - healthcare software) in a similar fashion, that was at least as draconian. After passing a 15 minute phone screen, they sent me a link to a service that: * Installed their proprietary software on my Mac * Connected me to a real person who verified my DL against who they were expecting * Had me swing my laptop 360 degrees around the room I was taking the test in, to make sure there were no notes or people assisting me on the quiz * Took remote control of my computer and force quit any programs in Activity Monitor that were on their 'blacklist' (including Dropbox, etc) * Gave me what I imagine amounted to a three-hour SAT style test with English proficiency, math, logic, etc. * The whole time, had that same person watching me through my webcam and watching my screen, to make sure that I was not cheating. I passed, and during my in-person full-day interview in Wisconsin, they had me do a few more of these tests (that were slightly harder and more about communication skills), as well as some interviews with people in person. It was an interesting experience for sure - definitely a different side of the coin compared to what a lot of HN is probably used to. I ended up getting an offer that was very good considering they are based outside of Madison, but ultimately decided to go somewhere else.

hermitdev 10y ago
I wonder how such a company would respond if you have neither a webcam or microphone. I certainly don't, at least not on my desktop. Well, that's a lie, I have a microphone, but it has a physical kill switch that is usually off, unless I'm playing a game where I want to communicate verbally.
- manacit 10y ago
  Fortunately, I still have the e-mail that they originally sent me. They list the requirements as: In order to take the assessments from your home, you will need: * a webcam (either internal or external is fine) * a microphone * a computer that meets the technical requirements and equipment test (most Macs and PCs meet these requirements – Linux and Unix are not compatible) * a basic calculator (please do not plan to use your phone, computer, or graphing calculator) * a government-issued photo ID However, later in the e-mail: > If you do not have a webcam, your computer doesn’t meet the technical requirements, or for any reason you'd prefer to take the exam at a proctored location near you, please let me know. I’ll need you to provide your full legal name and current address, and I’ll be able to make alternate arrangements. I think the company they do this through has testing locations around the USA to accommodate.
  - flukus 10y ago
    So straight off the bat their eliminating linux users, who you'd think would be a large part of their target market. >a basic calculator (please do not plan to use your phone, computer, or graphing calculator) Who even has a basic calculator anymore?
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      You can get them from the dollar store.
      - mynameisvlad 10y ago
        Sure, but that requires me to actually go out and buy a calculator. For a single use. It's so incredibly wasteful and forces me to go completely out of my way to complete the process.
        nommm-nommm 10y ago
        Then buy one from goodwill or borrow one? Most people over 50 still have them. You have to buy/do a lot more annoying shit during a job search. I have clothes that are solely for job interviews and I have to replace them if I want to start interviewing again since I gained weight. Complaining about spending a dollar on a calculator is like complaining you have to buy paper to print your resume on.
        mynameisvlad 10y ago
        I don't think you get the point. You'll have job interview clothes and printed resumes as part of every job hunt. That's just a part of the job hunt itself; there's expectations that you'd need those if you're looking for a job. A basic calculator, without the ability to use an alternative, is not, and forcing someone to go out of their way just to get through your setup, meanwhile being treated like a cheating high schooler, is not going to make them want to work for your company. I'm a grown ass man, I don't need to be treated like I'm going to cheat at an interview, especially when said cheating can easily be exposed in any sort of discussion or the first day on the job. Requiring a calculator is fine, but disallowing people from using basic tools they have available to complete the same task because of the potential of cheating (how can you even cheat on a coding challenge with a graphing calculator, anyway) is ludicrous. A 1 minute discussion about the code I just wrote can tell you just as much about whether I cheated or not as the arbitrary rules imposed here.
bsg75 10y ago
> Installed their proprietary software on my Mac 1) No 2) What if you don't have a web cam, say a desktop, not a MacBook?
- manacit 10y ago
  I still have the original e-mail they sent me, below the requirements section to do it online (OS X or Windows PC, Webcam, Microphone, etc), they say: > If you do not have a webcam, your computer doesn’t meet the technical requirements, or for any reason you'd prefer to take the exam at a proctored location near you, please let me know. I’ll need you to provide your full legal name and current address, and I’ll be able to make alternate arrangements. I believe the company they use to proctor these tests offers physical locations if you do not have access to a computer with the requirements
  - bsg75 10y ago
    I think I would prefer the proctored location in any case.
djsumdog 10y ago
That is a terrible process. I've never been asked that by anyone. The most I've had are some remote interviews where they use something like codepen (on-line group REPL)and they ask you a question and watch you write/run it. In one of them, my interviewer was a little late and found me trying to open .. and /. I could get a file list of a root file system. There was a file in / titled something like HACKING.txt and explained that you were in a container, but if you did find something, there was a bug bounty program.
- manacit 10y ago
  They are a big company that operates with a fairly proprietary set of programming language and tools (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS), and they hire a good number of people right out of undergraduate degrees. I remember there being a large proportion of non-CS students from across the country there interviewing for engineering positions. What they're looking for, I think, is not necessarily your ability to "hack" and program, but that you fit the mold of someone they can put through a rigorous 6 week (or more? I forget) training program that will teach you the basics of their stack, and then have you banging away.
  - flukus 10y ago
    > and they hire a good number of people right out of undergraduate degrees If they're using mumps they have to get them early before they know any better.
    - eatonphil 10y ago
      Personally, I always thought MUMPS was pretty cool. Database support as built-in to the language as you can get.
      - flukus 10y ago
        More than the language itself (I use some ugly ones quite regularly) I'd be worried about not gaining transferable skills. Moving on to the next job would be an uphill battle with recruiters and you might have to go back to entry level jobs.
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Wow. I would not consent to that. Then again, I run i3wm atop Linux. Even if I wanted to take such a test, it would be... interesting.
- striking 10y ago
  It probably wouldn't break. As long as you're using a modern browser, webapps are just as good at being invasive and tracking all your behavior on Linux as they are on Windows.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    It's not that. It's just that the proctor (assuming there is a physical one) would likely be utterly baffled by my DE.
flukus 10y ago
How long until the latest phishing scam is promising people job interviews?
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  Minus one year. I had my resume up on several job sites. I got an email using the name (and a plausible email) for a real, quality software company that sent me a list of HR-type questions. I sent some answers (no PII involved), and they told me I had the job and asked for some bank account information. That obviously set off some alarms, so I followed up with the company and found out that they were being impersonated. I would guess that someone spent 3+ hours just on hustling me - they'd clearly read my resume, which was ironically better than a lot of real interviews.
  - flukus 10y ago
    > and they told me I had the job and asked for some bank account information. Wow. The worst thing is that collecting this information isn't even a red flag when starting a new job, although it's always been done when I get there in person on day 1 for me. My current job required mountains of background checks and verification, more than enough to do some thorough identity theft. This was setup through a recruiter I met in person though. Imagine how many people they could get if they opened a legit recruitment office for a month?
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      I'm fairly sure this would have tipped you off - they made the offer with no technical questions or onsite, after talking to only one person, and asked for bank account info before a start date. A little more effort and they might well have gotten me, though. I can only imagine what a placement company or recruiter could do, just by doing the real job for a bit then bailing with the personal data obtained. It's not pretty, since job offers are such a standard reason to cough up PII.
onetwotree 10y ago
I think you made the right choice. I live in Madison and have some friends and coworkers who work or have worked for Epic. The burnout is epic (pun definitely intended). I think the only ones who really like their jobs are a barista and a cook.
- manacit 10y ago
  Yeah, that lines up with what I heard from other people that had worked there, or knew people that work there. For all of the flaws though, they had a fantastic and cheap cafeteria. It's surrounded by cow farms, though, so they have to have some sort of meal accommodation.
- epmatsw 10y ago
  I really enjoyed my time there actually. There's a decent burnout rate for some teams and roles (especially for ones that travel a lot), but there are some groups there that do interesting work. I was one of their Security team leads for a year or so right before I left and had a lot of fun with it.
x0x0 10y ago
You still have time! Save yourself. Google around for others' experiences, and do not work for Epic.
madeofpalk 10y ago
> * Had me swing my laptop 360 degrees around the room I was taking the test in, to make sure there were no notes or people assisting me on the quiz What happens if you have a computer without a webcam? Do they just not hire those people?
lucasmullens 10y ago
Epic asked for my ACT score...

by manacit 10y ago

hermitdev 10y ago

I wonder how such a company would respond if you have neither a webcam or microphone. I certainly don't, at least not on my desktop. Well, that's a lie, I have a microphone, but it has a physical kill switch that is usually off, unless I'm playing a game where I want to communicate verbally.

manacit 10y ago
Fortunately, I still have the e-mail that they originally sent me. They list the requirements as: In order to take the assessments from your home, you will need: * a webcam (either internal or external is fine) * a microphone * a computer that meets the technical requirements and equipment test (most Macs and PCs meet these requirements – Linux and Unix are not compatible) * a basic calculator (please do not plan to use your phone, computer, or graphing calculator) * a government-issued photo ID However, later in the e-mail: > If you do not have a webcam, your computer doesn’t meet the technical requirements, or for any reason you'd prefer to take the exam at a proctored location near you, please let me know. I’ll need you to provide your full legal name and current address, and I’ll be able to make alternate arrangements. I think the company they do this through has testing locations around the USA to accommodate.
- flukus 10y ago
  So straight off the bat their eliminating linux users, who you'd think would be a large part of their target market. >a basic calculator (please do not plan to use your phone, computer, or graphing calculator) Who even has a basic calculator anymore?
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    You can get them from the dollar store.
    - mynameisvlad 10y ago
      Sure, but that requires me to actually go out and buy a calculator. For a single use. It's so incredibly wasteful and forces me to go completely out of my way to complete the process.
      - nommm-nommm 10y ago
        Then buy one from goodwill or borrow one? Most people over 50 still have them. You have to buy/do a lot more annoying shit during a job search. I have clothes that are solely for job interviews and I have to replace them if I want to start interviewing again since I gained weight. Complaining about spending a dollar on a calculator is like complaining you have to buy paper to print your resume on.
        mynameisvlad 10y ago
        I don't think you get the point. You'll have job interview clothes and printed resumes as part of every job hunt. That's just a part of the job hunt itself; there's expectations that you'd need those if you're looking for a job. A basic calculator, without the ability to use an alternative, is not, and forcing someone to go out of their way just to get through your setup, meanwhile being treated like a cheating high schooler, is not going to make them want to work for your company. I'm a grown ass man, I don't need to be treated like I'm going to cheat at an interview, especially when said cheating can easily be exposed in any sort of discussion or the first day on the job. Requiring a calculator is fine, but disallowing people from using basic tools they have available to complete the same task because of the potential of cheating (how can you even cheat on a coding challenge with a graphing calculator, anyway) is ludicrous. A 1 minute discussion about the code I just wrote can tell you just as much about whether I cheated or not as the arbitrary rules imposed here.

bsg75 10y ago

> Installed their proprietary software on my Mac 1) No 2) What if you don't have a web cam, say a desktop, not a MacBook?

manacit 10y ago
I still have the original e-mail they sent me, below the requirements section to do it online (OS X or Windows PC, Webcam, Microphone, etc), they say: > If you do not have a webcam, your computer doesn’t meet the technical requirements, or for any reason you'd prefer to take the exam at a proctored location near you, please let me know. I’ll need you to provide your full legal name and current address, and I’ll be able to make alternate arrangements. I believe the company they use to proctor these tests offers physical locations if you do not have access to a computer with the requirements
- bsg75 10y ago
  I think I would prefer the proctored location in any case.

djsumdog 10y ago

That is a terrible process. I've never been asked that by anyone. The most I've had are some remote interviews where they use something like codepen (on-line group REPL)and they ask you a question and watch you write/run it. In one of them, my interviewer was a little late and found me trying to open .. and /. I could get a file list of a root file system. There was a file in / titled something like HACKING.txt and explained that you were in a container, but if you did find something, there was a bug bounty program.

manacit 10y ago
They are a big company that operates with a fairly proprietary set of programming language and tools (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS), and they hire a good number of people right out of undergraduate degrees. I remember there being a large proportion of non-CS students from across the country there interviewing for engineering positions. What they're looking for, I think, is not necessarily your ability to "hack" and program, but that you fit the mold of someone they can put through a rigorous 6 week (or more? I forget) training program that will teach you the basics of their stack, and then have you banging away.
- flukus 10y ago
  > and they hire a good number of people right out of undergraduate degrees If they're using mumps they have to get them early before they know any better.
  - eatonphil 10y ago
    Personally, I always thought MUMPS was pretty cool. Database support as built-in to the language as you can get.
    - flukus 10y ago
      More than the language itself (I use some ugly ones quite regularly) I'd be worried about not gaining transferable skills. Moving on to the next job would be an uphill battle with recruiters and you might have to go back to entry level jobs.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

Wow. I would not consent to that. Then again, I run i3wm atop Linux. Even if I wanted to take such a test, it would be... interesting.

striking 10y ago
It probably wouldn't break. As long as you're using a modern browser, webapps are just as good at being invasive and tracking all your behavior on Linux as they are on Windows.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  It's not that. It's just that the proctor (assuming there is a physical one) would likely be utterly baffled by my DE.

flukus 10y ago

How long until the latest phishing scam is promising people job interviews?

Bartweiss 10y ago
Minus one year. I had my resume up on several job sites. I got an email using the name (and a plausible email) for a real, quality software company that sent me a list of HR-type questions. I sent some answers (no PII involved), and they told me I had the job and asked for some bank account information. That obviously set off some alarms, so I followed up with the company and found out that they were being impersonated. I would guess that someone spent 3+ hours just on hustling me - they'd clearly read my resume, which was ironically better than a lot of real interviews.
- flukus 10y ago
  > and they told me I had the job and asked for some bank account information. Wow. The worst thing is that collecting this information isn't even a red flag when starting a new job, although it's always been done when I get there in person on day 1 for me. My current job required mountains of background checks and verification, more than enough to do some thorough identity theft. This was setup through a recruiter I met in person though. Imagine how many people they could get if they opened a legit recruitment office for a month?
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    I'm fairly sure this would have tipped you off - they made the offer with no technical questions or onsite, after talking to only one person, and asked for bank account info before a start date. A little more effort and they might well have gotten me, though. I can only imagine what a placement company or recruiter could do, just by doing the real job for a bit then bailing with the personal data obtained. It's not pretty, since job offers are such a standard reason to cough up PII.

onetwotree 10y ago

I think you made the right choice. I live in Madison and have some friends and coworkers who work or have worked for Epic. The burnout is epic (pun definitely intended). I think the only ones who really like their jobs are a barista and a cook.

manacit 10y ago
Yeah, that lines up with what I heard from other people that had worked there, or knew people that work there. For all of the flaws though, they had a fantastic and cheap cafeteria. It's surrounded by cow farms, though, so they have to have some sort of meal accommodation.
epmatsw 10y ago
I really enjoyed my time there actually. There's a decent burnout rate for some teams and roles (especially for ones that travel a lot), but there are some groups there that do interesting work. I was one of their Security team leads for a year or so right before I left and had a lot of fun with it.

x0x0 10y ago

You still have time! Save yourself. Google around for others' experiences, and do not work for Epic.

madeofpalk 10y ago

> * Had me swing my laptop 360 degrees around the room I was taking the test in, to make sure there were no notes or people assisting me on the quiz What happens if you have a computer without a webcam? Do they just not hire those people?

lucasmullens 10y ago

Epic asked for my ACT score...