4 ms·

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I were actually to install this in my car, that car would no longer be street legal, right?

striking 10y ago
The car would likely still be street legal. (IANAL) However, allowing this system to take control of your car on a public road would not. Another way to say this is, there's nothing dangerous about the hardware. You could be using it as a logging platform for the data on the CAN bus in your car. But letting the software send commands and take control from a driver is a different story.
- darawk 10y ago
  > The car would likely still be street legal. (IANAL) However, allowing this system to take control of your car on a public road would not. IAANAL, but I don't think even that is true. I think it actually is legal to allow it to take control of your car, provided you are still sitting in the driver's seat and can take control back at any time.
  - BoringCode 10y ago
    IANAL (can we get a real one in here?), but it depends heavily on your jurisdiction.
  - openasocket 10y ago
    > can take control back at any time but if you're going down the highway and the AI decides to suddenly swing the wheel far right as quickly as possible, no human being would have reaction time good enough to recover without crashing. I'd be pretty concerned if you could add an autopilot to your car and drive it around on public roads without any sort of demonstration of safety.
    - espes 10y ago
      > but if you're going down the highway and the AI decides to suddenly swing the wheel far right as quickly as possible, no human being would have reaction time good enough to recover without crashing "The EPS controller in the car limits the torque to a very small amount, so regardless of the message, the controller cannot jerk the wheel" [1] [1] https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/master/SAFETY.md https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/master/SAFETY.md
    - ams6110 10y ago
      People are allowed to work on their own cars, including brakes, suspension, steering, etc. Happens every day in driveways everywhere. I do it myself.
      - serge2k 10y ago
        So if I decide to do a bunch of suspension work and then don't bother to get any sort of alignment done am I liable when I get into an accident?
        ams6110 10y ago
        Yes, IMO.
      - openasocket 10y ago
        But there are restrictions of what parts you can use. I can't just make my own engine and drive around with it without getting that engine certified, right?
        ams6110 10y ago
        I don't know of any reason why not. Certified by who? Who would ever know? I can put a Chevy engine in a Ford, and plenty of people do much more than that, e.g. homebrew EVs, etc.
        mplewis 10y ago
        This is automobiles, not general aviation. You don't have to get your engine certified to drive it on public roads, but you might have to pass emissions.
  - Matthias247 10y ago
    > I think it actually is legal to allow it to take control of your car, provided you are still sitting in the driver's seat and can take control back at any time. Can you GUARANTEE that you would be able to do this in a modified car with such a setup? You might be able to do so if we are talking about pure mechanical overrides. With blackbox software that's imho next to impossible. There will be no public documentation on what the cars systems will do if the receive some commands on the bus from a non-approved device and others from the driver. Even if you can observe through testing that driver inputs win the system might still behave different in some edge cases.
Matthias247 10y ago
In Germany you would need a special permission from TÜV (technical supervisory association) for any modification that has or might have an influence on driving behavior. That means that you have to pay them for checking your car and getting a report which allows you to drive it. People are doing this for all kinds of modifications, from custom wheels (where the permission is cheap) to custom engines or suspensions up to completely custom cars (which might get very expensive). Without getting the new permission you are not allowed to drive it on public road. If you still do then you might also have the problem that your insurance is void. I don't know what e.g. TÜV would say about a device like this, but I guess the outcome is it would be either to expensive to analyze it or not possible it all since the overall system design and the interaction between the different devices might be not be known (e.g. there might be no public knowledge on how Acura ECUs might react on CAN signals which were never considered during design).

striking 10y ago

The car would likely still be street legal. (IANAL) However, allowing this system to take control of your car on a public road would not. Another way to say this is, there's nothing dangerous about the hardware. You could be using it as a logging platform for the data on the CAN bus in your car. But letting the software send commands and take control from a driver is a different story.

darawk 10y ago
> The car would likely still be street legal. (IANAL) However, allowing this system to take control of your car on a public road would not. IAANAL, but I don't think even that is true. I think it actually is legal to allow it to take control of your car, provided you are still sitting in the driver's seat and can take control back at any time.
- BoringCode 10y ago
  IANAL (can we get a real one in here?), but it depends heavily on your jurisdiction.
- openasocket 10y ago
  > can take control back at any time but if you're going down the highway and the AI decides to suddenly swing the wheel far right as quickly as possible, no human being would have reaction time good enough to recover without crashing. I'd be pretty concerned if you could add an autopilot to your car and drive it around on public roads without any sort of demonstration of safety.
  - espes 10y ago
    > but if you're going down the highway and the AI decides to suddenly swing the wheel far right as quickly as possible, no human being would have reaction time good enough to recover without crashing "The EPS controller in the car limits the torque to a very small amount, so regardless of the message, the controller cannot jerk the wheel" [1] [1] https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/master/SAFETY.md https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/master/SAFETY.md
  - ams6110 10y ago
    People are allowed to work on their own cars, including brakes, suspension, steering, etc. Happens every day in driveways everywhere. I do it myself.
    - serge2k 10y ago
      So if I decide to do a bunch of suspension work and then don't bother to get any sort of alignment done am I liable when I get into an accident?
      - ams6110 10y ago
        Yes, IMO.
    - openasocket 10y ago
      But there are restrictions of what parts you can use. I can't just make my own engine and drive around with it without getting that engine certified, right?
      - ams6110 10y ago
        I don't know of any reason why not. Certified by who? Who would ever know? I can put a Chevy engine in a Ford, and plenty of people do much more than that, e.g. homebrew EVs, etc.
      - mplewis 10y ago
        This is automobiles, not general aviation. You don't have to get your engine certified to drive it on public roads, but you might have to pass emissions.
- Matthias247 10y ago
  > I think it actually is legal to allow it to take control of your car, provided you are still sitting in the driver's seat and can take control back at any time. Can you GUARANTEE that you would be able to do this in a modified car with such a setup? You might be able to do so if we are talking about pure mechanical overrides. With blackbox software that's imho next to impossible. There will be no public documentation on what the cars systems will do if the receive some commands on the bus from a non-approved device and others from the driver. Even if you can observe through testing that driver inputs win the system might still behave different in some edge cases.

Matthias247 10y ago

In Germany you would need a special permission from TÜV (technical supervisory association) for any modification that has or might have an influence on driving behavior. That means that you have to pay them for checking your car and getting a report which allows you to drive it. People are doing this for all kinds of modifications, from custom wheels (where the permission is cheap) to custom engines or suspensions up to completely custom cars (which might get very expensive). Without getting the new permission you are not allowed to drive it on public road. If you still do then you might also have the problem that your insurance is void. I don't know what e.g. TÜV would say about a device like this, but I guess the outcome is it would be either to expensive to analyze it or not possible it all since the overall system design and the interaction between the different devices might be not be known (e.g. there might be no public knowledge on how Acura ECUs might react on CAN signals which were never considered during design).