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Having a reasonable discussion about student loans with an age group that attended college 20-30 years ago isn't reasonable. The costs increased exponentially c

Having a reasonable discussion about student loans with an age group that attended college 20-30 years ago isn't reasonable. The costs increased exponentially compared to what it was. The reasonable solution is to educate high school students on the affordable options of in-state universities and community college.

VLM 10y ago
Also the trades. Everyone going to Stanford will get a tech job in SV, which is nice for about 0.1% of the population, but its a national problem and rando graduate of some state U has at best 50/50 odds of getting a job in their field or working retail/restaurant/bartend work. Better off as a 22 yr old electrician than as a 22 yr old unemployed kid in moms basement.
- _delirium 10y ago
  You have to pick the right trade, though, which requires quite some economic forecasting. Several of my extended family members took exactly this route for the reason you suggest, and they're now unemployed former steelworkers. In retrospect they would've been better off with a university degree, as unemployment rates are much lower for people with degrees. I know people with degrees who got laid off from steel companies too (doing engineering, HR, accounting, IT, various things), but they had a much easier time switching industries to find new jobs. Most of the building trades have also fared badly (with electrician somewhat of an exception), as wages have collapsed over the past few decades in trades like carpentry and roofing.
  - pc86 10y ago
    Aren't there programs to retrain workers whose jobs are offshored?
    - kingkawn 10y ago
      Not really
    - John23832 10y ago
      There are Federal programs to retrain and financially assist those who have be displaced by offshoring.[1] The problem is that these programs are notoriously underfunded (the financial assistance barely helps. It's like 10k a year if you're very lucky), have their resources misallocated, and do just enough to say that they're doing "something". Their funding is also often lumped in with other welfare "handouts". So when people vote against funding "handouts", they vote against helping people who need it most. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance
    - rpeden 10y ago
      There are such programs, but their effectiveness and avilability varies widely depending on where you live. Where I live, we have Second Career Ontario[1]. When I was in college, several of my classmates were formerly highly paid tradespeople who ended up unemployed and unable to find work after the decline in Ontario's manufacturing sector. The Second Career program funding was enough for them to go back to school for a couple of years. To to best of my knowledge, all of my classmates ended up making the transition to a new career successfully. I've seen programs in other jurisdicitions that provide some funding for retraining, but not enough funding to teach people enough skills in enough depth for them to realistically be able to move to a new career. [1] http://www.secondcareerontario.com/web/second_career/ http://www.secondcareerontario.com/web/second_career/
  - jazzyk 10y ago
    I want to say one word to you. Just one word: Plumbing. [quote from "The Graduate"] :-) Seriously though: I have been begging plumbers to come and work on a reasonably high-priced project at my house. I reached out to 10+, no one is interested - they are booked for weeks in advance.
    - justin66 10y ago
      > reasonably high-priced project What would it pay for them?
      - jazzyk 10y ago
        The one quote I was able to get - $6K, labor only. No more than 2 days of work for 1 person. All plumbers based within 10 min drive.
        antisthenes 10y ago
        You're not telling the full story. $6k got me a 4 hour response of a 5 man crew with an excavator to replace a rusted section of a wastewater pipe, which involved digging 14ft down and demolishing part of my driveway (and pouring new concrete in after it was finished) > No more than 2 days of work for 1 person. You'll have us believe a plumber charges $375/hour for this project, based on the $6k quote? This is not typical, so either your project is extremely difficult or you're not telling us something else.
    - hash-set 10y ago
      My brother is a "plumber" but he never took the exam or whatever and got his license. It's the same thing over and over--people with ambition succeed, people who lack it do not. If he had studied and gotten that license he would have been set for life, but no, always the "helper" or taking far lower paying jobs at schools and hospitals instead.
- stinkytaco 10y ago
  I used to work as a diesel mechanic. Trades are great, but we, as a society, are not really prepared to deal with them. It's easy for someone working a comfortable desk job to say "those kids should go into the trades" without realizing the following things: 1. Trade jobs often involve non trivial amounts of physical risk. 2. Trade jobs rarely allow you to work until normal retirement age (65 or even 70). I never met a diesel mechanic over the age of 50, and precious few in their 40s. 3. Despite all that, they don't pay as much as your desk job. If you're going to sit a kid down and give them the option between a physically demanding, difficult trade job or a climate controlled, higher paying desk job, what do you think they are going to choose, realistic or not?
at-fates-hands 10y ago
I would also add alternative ways to get into a career. Whether that be through a trade school, code boot camp or technical college that is available in their area. There is no longer a reason to think that you must go get a 4 year degree in order to have a career and financially independent. Education has evolved drastically over the last 20 years because tuition has gone through the roof.
pc86 10y ago
Who isn't being educated about these options? I was in HS 00-04 and teachers and guidance counselors constantly extolled cheap state school options (which even today are in the $6-8k/yr range including room and board) and community colleges. Prestige and pride have a lot to do with it. Two degrees from the same school are worth the same if one person was there for four years and one went to community college for two first, but ask the 17 year old HS student who just has to sign a promissory note which one they want to do, and they're going to pick the first option 9 times out of 10.
- saint_fiasco 10y ago
  Then don't let them. Why is so much money being lent to such people? It's just usury.
  - pc86 10y ago
    That's not what usury means, because it's not illegal and it's not unreasonable high rates of interest. My highest student loan, which is private, is about 6%. Also, who are you to tell someone that they can't go to a school if they can find someone to lend them the money to do it?
    - justin66 10y ago
      > My highest student loan, which is private, is about 6%. If you're in the US and you don't think that rate is unreasonable, I'm curious as to why. We're talking about loans that cannot even be discharged in bankruptcy, in a 0% interest rate environment.
      - pc86 10y ago
        2007 was not a 0% interest rate environment.
        justin66 10y ago
        Oh, that's an old loan. My sympathies. But I'm paying roughly the same for loans taken out in the last five years. It's irritating.
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pwthornton 10y ago
No, you're missing a key point: In-state tuition has sky rocketed because states have drastically cut funding. People who went to state school 30 years ago went to schools that were much better funded by their states.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Yeah I just looked at a couple of nearby state schools that are rated 'selective' by US News (that means they aren't very selective) and tuition is roughly $10,000 per year.
- noobermin 10y ago
  I've heard this a lot but do you have a citation for this? I'm actually open to believing this but I want a link.
  - WkndTriathlete 10y ago
    FiveThirtyEight had a nice piece on exactly this recently. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-ma...
  - pwthornton 10y ago
    I'll need some more time to find a great link, but there are a lot when you go state by state. Some states have done a much better job of keeping tuition relatively affordable. Here is one link: http://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/funding-down-tuition-up http://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/funding-do...
AWildDHHAppears 10y ago
The costs increased because the government hands out money that people don't have to pay back. The government should stop the student loan program now.
phkahler 10y ago
>> The costs increased exponentially compared to what it was. The cost increased due to government intervention. They wanted more people to go to college so they told lenders they'd guarantee loans for education. They do that by having the ability to take it out of your paycheck for the rest of your life if you don't pay. Anyway, with the flood of money instantly available, schools were able to jack tuition by double digits every year for as long as the want. The place I went has been on a building spree for the last 20 years - it's a whole different place now. Part of that was needed since the number of students has about doubled, so it's not entirely wasteful. But the bottom line is that the "free" money is what caused the rates to rise. I feel bad for that entire generation - they got fucked from all angles financially.
- rcarrigan87 10y ago
  School that I went to also has been on a building spree for the past 20 years. I'm sure a lot of the spending is necessary, but seeing things like mega-gyms and amphitheaters being built with student tuition is ridiculous. The irony is no one will ever be able to afford a gym membership as nice as the gym they had in college because they're too loaded with debt from said college.
  - cableshaft 10y ago
    Same here. My college has a 30 year master plan on their website, and it's basically knocking down every single building and rebuilding them. They've already knocked down several buildings and what they've replaced them with has been at least twice as big. The gym they built about seven years ago is huge, and fancier than just about every commercial gym in the city. But.....that being said, I have heard that they lost over half of their government subsidies (it's a private school), and the state has been perpetually 6 months behind on those subsidy payments, so that's at least part of the reason for the tuition increase also.
- a_thro_away 10y ago
  I don't disagree, but where I saw it begin was approx. +25 years ago when business started demanding degrees for jobs that had previously had no requirement, and for career advancement, as well as refusing on the job training. They would pay for expensive tuition and book benefits with no problem though. People began beating the doors down of colleges as this was the only way to enter many careers, or advance to the next level once there. Once this cascade started, the government wanted to make sure there was some kind of equal access to education, so funding had to be made available to allow the less privileged to attend, students or adults. Just my take on it.
ourmandave 10y ago
I took the Scared Straight approach with my daughter. 1. On-line loan repayment calculators showing you're monthly payment for years. 2. Youtube videos under the search "I majored in debt". 3. The FAQ on the loan servicer's website; or "Where's all this interest coming from?!" http://www.studentloan.org/about-us/frequently-asked-questions.aspx http://www.studentloan.org/about-us/frequently-asked-questio...
- cableshaft 10y ago
  Good approach. It won't sink in unless they see how it has already affected other people. Did she decide to be more modest in her college ambitions after that?
Grazester 10y ago
"The reasonable solution is to educate high school students on the affordable options of in-state universities and community college" I was an international student in the U.S. and went to a community college and did very well then went to a 4 year college after. I had little choice since $1 USD = $2.5 of my country's currency so community college was a cheaper option especially after having my parent also send my other siblings to college out of pocket. At community college I watched kids(Americans), not all though just waste their opportunity, slacking off in the cafeteria when they should have been at class and eventually getting dropped. It was basically free for them. We international students just wished amongst ourselves that we were given the same opportunity of free schooling at that level. Going to community didn't seem to hurt me in anyway.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>The reasonable solution is to educate high school students on the affordable options of in-state universities and community college. When the in-state flagship university costs $25k/year to attend, it's not very reasonable.

VLM 10y ago

Also the trades. Everyone going to Stanford will get a tech job in SV, which is nice for about 0.1% of the population, but its a national problem and rando graduate of some state U has at best 50/50 odds of getting a job in their field or working retail/restaurant/bartend work. Better off as a 22 yr old electrician than as a 22 yr old unemployed kid in moms basement.

_delirium 10y ago
You have to pick the right trade, though, which requires quite some economic forecasting. Several of my extended family members took exactly this route for the reason you suggest, and they're now unemployed former steelworkers. In retrospect they would've been better off with a university degree, as unemployment rates are much lower for people with degrees. I know people with degrees who got laid off from steel companies too (doing engineering, HR, accounting, IT, various things), but they had a much easier time switching industries to find new jobs. Most of the building trades have also fared badly (with electrician somewhat of an exception), as wages have collapsed over the past few decades in trades like carpentry and roofing.
- pc86 10y ago
  Aren't there programs to retrain workers whose jobs are offshored?
  - kingkawn 10y ago
    Not really
  - John23832 10y ago
    There are Federal programs to retrain and financially assist those who have be displaced by offshoring.[1] The problem is that these programs are notoriously underfunded (the financial assistance barely helps. It's like 10k a year if you're very lucky), have their resources misallocated, and do just enough to say that they're doing "something". Their funding is also often lumped in with other welfare "handouts". So when people vote against funding "handouts", they vote against helping people who need it most. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance
  - rpeden 10y ago
    There are such programs, but their effectiveness and avilability varies widely depending on where you live. Where I live, we have Second Career Ontario[1]. When I was in college, several of my classmates were formerly highly paid tradespeople who ended up unemployed and unable to find work after the decline in Ontario's manufacturing sector. The Second Career program funding was enough for them to go back to school for a couple of years. To to best of my knowledge, all of my classmates ended up making the transition to a new career successfully. I've seen programs in other jurisdicitions that provide some funding for retraining, but not enough funding to teach people enough skills in enough depth for them to realistically be able to move to a new career. [1] http://www.secondcareerontario.com/web/second_career/ http://www.secondcareerontario.com/web/second_career/
- jazzyk 10y ago
  I want to say one word to you. Just one word: Plumbing. [quote from "The Graduate"] :-) Seriously though: I have been begging plumbers to come and work on a reasonably high-priced project at my house. I reached out to 10+, no one is interested - they are booked for weeks in advance.
  - justin66 10y ago
    > reasonably high-priced project What would it pay for them?
    - jazzyk 10y ago
      The one quote I was able to get - $6K, labor only. No more than 2 days of work for 1 person. All plumbers based within 10 min drive.
      - antisthenes 10y ago
        You're not telling the full story. $6k got me a 4 hour response of a 5 man crew with an excavator to replace a rusted section of a wastewater pipe, which involved digging 14ft down and demolishing part of my driveway (and pouring new concrete in after it was finished) > No more than 2 days of work for 1 person. You'll have us believe a plumber charges $375/hour for this project, based on the $6k quote? This is not typical, so either your project is extremely difficult or you're not telling us something else.
  - hash-set 10y ago
    My brother is a "plumber" but he never took the exam or whatever and got his license. It's the same thing over and over--people with ambition succeed, people who lack it do not. If he had studied and gotten that license he would have been set for life, but no, always the "helper" or taking far lower paying jobs at schools and hospitals instead.
stinkytaco 10y ago
I used to work as a diesel mechanic. Trades are great, but we, as a society, are not really prepared to deal with them. It's easy for someone working a comfortable desk job to say "those kids should go into the trades" without realizing the following things: 1. Trade jobs often involve non trivial amounts of physical risk. 2. Trade jobs rarely allow you to work until normal retirement age (65 or even 70). I never met a diesel mechanic over the age of 50, and precious few in their 40s. 3. Despite all that, they don't pay as much as your desk job. If you're going to sit a kid down and give them the option between a physically demanding, difficult trade job or a climate controlled, higher paying desk job, what do you think they are going to choose, realistic or not?

at-fates-hands 10y ago

I would also add alternative ways to get into a career. Whether that be through a trade school, code boot camp or technical college that is available in their area. There is no longer a reason to think that you must go get a 4 year degree in order to have a career and financially independent. Education has evolved drastically over the last 20 years because tuition has gone through the roof.

pc86 10y ago

Who isn't being educated about these options? I was in HS 00-04 and teachers and guidance counselors constantly extolled cheap state school options (which even today are in the $6-8k/yr range including room and board) and community colleges. Prestige and pride have a lot to do with it. Two degrees from the same school are worth the same if one person was there for four years and one went to community college for two first, but ask the 17 year old HS student who just has to sign a promissory note which one they want to do, and they're going to pick the first option 9 times out of 10.

saint_fiasco 10y ago
Then don't let them. Why is so much money being lent to such people? It's just usury.
- pc86 10y ago
  That's not what usury means, because it's not illegal and it's not unreasonable high rates of interest. My highest student loan, which is private, is about 6%. Also, who are you to tell someone that they can't go to a school if they can find someone to lend them the money to do it?
  - justin66 10y ago
    > My highest student loan, which is private, is about 6%. If you're in the US and you don't think that rate is unreasonable, I'm curious as to why. We're talking about loans that cannot even be discharged in bankruptcy, in a 0% interest rate environment.
    - pc86 10y ago
      2007 was not a 0% interest rate environment.
      - justin66 10y ago
        Oh, that's an old loan. My sympathies. But I'm paying roughly the same for loans taken out in the last five years. It's irritating.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

deleted 10y ago

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pwthornton 10y ago

No, you're missing a key point: In-state tuition has sky rocketed because states have drastically cut funding. People who went to state school 30 years ago went to schools that were much better funded by their states.

maxerickson 10y ago
Yeah I just looked at a couple of nearby state schools that are rated 'selective' by US News (that means they aren't very selective) and tuition is roughly $10,000 per year.
noobermin 10y ago
I've heard this a lot but do you have a citation for this? I'm actually open to believing this but I want a link.
- WkndTriathlete 10y ago
  FiveThirtyEight had a nice piece on exactly this recently. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-ma...
- pwthornton 10y ago
  I'll need some more time to find a great link, but there are a lot when you go state by state. Some states have done a much better job of keeping tuition relatively affordable. Here is one link: http://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/funding-down-tuition-up http://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/funding-do...

AWildDHHAppears 10y ago

The costs increased because the government hands out money that people don't have to pay back. The government should stop the student loan program now.

phkahler 10y ago

>> The costs increased exponentially compared to what it was. The cost increased due to government intervention. They wanted more people to go to college so they told lenders they'd guarantee loans for education. They do that by having the ability to take it out of your paycheck for the rest of your life if you don't pay. Anyway, with the flood of money instantly available, schools were able to jack tuition by double digits every year for as long as the want. The place I went has been on a building spree for the last 20 years - it's a whole different place now. Part of that was needed since the number of students has about doubled, so it's not entirely wasteful. But the bottom line is that the "free" money is what caused the rates to rise. I feel bad for that entire generation - they got fucked from all angles financially.

rcarrigan87 10y ago
School that I went to also has been on a building spree for the past 20 years. I'm sure a lot of the spending is necessary, but seeing things like mega-gyms and amphitheaters being built with student tuition is ridiculous. The irony is no one will ever be able to afford a gym membership as nice as the gym they had in college because they're too loaded with debt from said college.
- cableshaft 10y ago
  Same here. My college has a 30 year master plan on their website, and it's basically knocking down every single building and rebuilding them. They've already knocked down several buildings and what they've replaced them with has been at least twice as big. The gym they built about seven years ago is huge, and fancier than just about every commercial gym in the city. But.....that being said, I have heard that they lost over half of their government subsidies (it's a private school), and the state has been perpetually 6 months behind on those subsidy payments, so that's at least part of the reason for the tuition increase also.
a_thro_away 10y ago
I don't disagree, but where I saw it begin was approx. +25 years ago when business started demanding degrees for jobs that had previously had no requirement, and for career advancement, as well as refusing on the job training. They would pay for expensive tuition and book benefits with no problem though. People began beating the doors down of colleges as this was the only way to enter many careers, or advance to the next level once there. Once this cascade started, the government wanted to make sure there was some kind of equal access to education, so funding had to be made available to allow the less privileged to attend, students or adults. Just my take on it.

ourmandave 10y ago

I took the Scared Straight approach with my daughter. 1. On-line loan repayment calculators showing you're monthly payment for years. 2. Youtube videos under the search "I majored in debt". 3. The FAQ on the loan servicer's website; or "Where's all this interest coming from?!" http://www.studentloan.org/about-us/frequently-asked-questions.aspx http://www.studentloan.org/about-us/frequently-asked-questio...

cableshaft 10y ago
Good approach. It won't sink in unless they see how it has already affected other people. Did she decide to be more modest in her college ambitions after that?

Grazester 10y ago

"The reasonable solution is to educate high school students on the affordable options of in-state universities and community college" I was an international student in the U.S. and went to a community college and did very well then went to a 4 year college after. I had little choice since $1 USD = $2.5 of my country's currency so community college was a cheaper option especially after having my parent also send my other siblings to college out of pocket. At community college I watched kids(Americans), not all though just waste their opportunity, slacking off in the cafeteria when they should have been at class and eventually getting dropped. It was basically free for them. We international students just wished amongst ourselves that we were given the same opportunity of free schooling at that level. Going to community didn't seem to hurt me in anyway.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>The reasonable solution is to educate high school students on the affordable options of in-state universities and community college. When the in-state flagship university costs $25k/year to attend, it's not very reasonable.