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"One wonders if these people are people at all, or instead soulless golem"[1] The rise of neonazism in the US is real. To claim otherwise, to imply that it is

by fnovd 10y ago

"One wonders if these people are people at all, or instead soulless golem"[1] The rise of neonazism in the US is real. To claim otherwise, to imply that it is an "arrant falsehood," is to be purposefully ignorant. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-LnO2DOGE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-LnO2DOGE

internaut 10y ago
Spencer was being deliberately provocative. He knows the media will only play a handful of sound bites to spin their tales, so he gave it to them on a platter to achieve maximum coverage. And it worked. He is now the Great Satan, which apparently means lots of long interviews with major television and radio stations. For clarity, that quote is referring to journalists and the media. Not Jews, as some have been heavily implying. I'd like to remind people here that this is exactly Trump's playbook. You infuriate people, they are eager to take you out of context or extrapolate wildly, then curious passersby figure your accusers are not credible. It's not a high moral ground tactic, but it sure works.
- fnovd 10y ago
  >For clarity, that quote is referring to journalists and the media. Not Jews, as some have been heavily implying. This absolutely false. The word "zombie" is what people go to when they think of a mindless being. The word "golem" is what a nazi would say as a dogwhistle to let people know he's down with hating (((Jews))). We Jews said we would never forget, and we haven't.
  - internaut 10y ago
    I am aware of the associations with 'golem' and 'lugenpresse'. And I know the alt-right really hate the media. You're probably not aware fnovd, then many of the attendees were themselves Jewish, including those of 'Heiling' fame. http://www.thewrap.com/tila-tequila-jewish-friends-nazi-sieg-heil-video/ http://www.thewrap.com/tila-tequila-jewish-friends-nazi-sieg... These people are trolling. This is classic trolling. They know this causes people to react and how the media works. For instance The Atlantic in their video on the NPI conference showed apparently 'dozens' of people doing the 'Heil' salute, but if you examine the footage closely you'll notice Richard Spencer is in fact holding up a water glass in one hand and the camera is being positioned multiple times in such a way to make the same three people look like six or nine people. There are classic camera tricks in that video actually to form your opinion (e.g. selective blurring), I'm sure you'll see them too if you go and look. This is also trolling with a purpose in order to attract the right enemies. As I said, this is not the high moral ground. Nonetheless they are not Nazis. You'll need more than some Jewish boys and an Asian pornstar for that to have merit.
    - fnovd 10y ago
      The existence of trolls doesn't mean that neonazis can't exist. Your doubletalk isn't fooling anyone. The words and actions in Spencer's talk were beyond explicit. Wake up.
throwanem 10y ago
Who the hell is Richard Spencer? I had never heard of him until a couple weeks ago. No one I know who claims the label "alt-right" had heard of him until a couple of weeks ago. No one anywhere had heard of him until the media dug him out from under his rock and started shooting arrows into the big bull's eye he helpfully painted on his idiot forehead for them. Were I conspiratorially minded, I'd imagine he might be a false-flag plant. But I'm old enough to know better. The people I know who claim "alt-right" are not. They're young and full of piss and vinegar. They're also largely quite intelligent and not less well supplied with humanity than anyone else their age. They were quite receptive to the idea that nothing in the world is simple, and that demonizing any group of people en masse is a cheap, lazy, stupid shortcut past a lot of hard thought and the careful application of empathy toward the acknowledgement that compromise and negotiation are necessary toward any modus vivendi that's satisfactory to everyone, or as nearly so as can be managed in the imperfect world we inhabit. I've been at this for a year now, more or less. It's been slow, difficult, complex, and anything but heroic, as teaching always is. But I'd capitalized on a couple of early successes, favorably impressing some of those among this group who are themselves generally looked up to by most others, and I was having a real effect. I had them thinking, or starting to - critically analyzing the contradictions between the left's claims and its behavior, and distinguishing the desirability of a lot of progressive goals from the counterproductive ways in which the modern progressive movement operates. I had them getting toward ready to start using the brains and the hearts God gave them to work toward a genuinely better world - for everyone - rather than the mirage of the progressive millennium whose pursuit has brought us to the pretty pass whereat we stand. Of course, that was before the whole godforsaken world started calling them Nazis, sight unseen. How the hell am I supposed to compete with that? They're good kids, but they're kids. If you think it's easy, over a purely textual medium, to outdo "fuck you, you're not my dad", then by all means I invite you to try. And if you want to write them off, fine. That's easy and it's comfortable and it feels good. I get that. I don't even blame you, although I'd like to, because that would be easy too. But I am going to tell you you're making a mistake. Not that it matters, at this point. In the last few weeks, I've seen my influence go from considerable to just about none. They aren't listening to me any more, because there's nothing in the world as exciting as to fight against injustice - which is exactly how they see it, and considering the way I'm seeing them slandered I don't even think they're wrong. Certainly one bookish old homosexual who counsels analysis and empathy over rash action can't live up to that! So they're going to go their way, and you are going to go yours, and I guess I've wasted a year's worth of the hard work with which the actual left, for whom I hold no love, can't be bothered. Perhaps I should have done better, but for the life of me I can't see how. There's only so much shit you can expect people to eat, and the left long ago passed that mark with those whom it makes its enemies. Little wonder they're starting to sick it up now, and we all have to live with the mess. (And I see the post's been flagged, which means even the time I've spent writing this comment was wasted, because no one will see it. So it goes. May God and history judge us all more kindly than we deserve.)
MK999 10y ago
There is no rise of neo-nazism in the US. Real neo-nazi groups are run by the feds, if you don't know this already you are purposefully ignorant. The so-called Alt-Right and their memes are just a reaction to decades of liberal browbeating and name-calling (xenophobe... etc).
- fnovd 10y ago
  There is no factual basis for anything you wrote.
  - MK999 10y ago
    Yes everything you say is 'fact' and 'science'. Try a bit harder.
    - sctb 10y ago
      We don't call other users “purposefully ignorant” or patronize them like this on HN. Please comment civilly and substantively or not at all.

by fnovd 10y ago

internaut 10y ago

Spencer was being deliberately provocative. He knows the media will only play a handful of sound bites to spin their tales, so he gave it to them on a platter to achieve maximum coverage. And it worked. He is now the Great Satan, which apparently means lots of long interviews with major television and radio stations. For clarity, that quote is referring to journalists and the media. Not Jews, as some have been heavily implying. I'd like to remind people here that this is exactly Trump's playbook. You infuriate people, they are eager to take you out of context or extrapolate wildly, then curious passersby figure your accusers are not credible. It's not a high moral ground tactic, but it sure works.

fnovd 10y ago
>For clarity, that quote is referring to journalists and the media. Not Jews, as some have been heavily implying. This absolutely false. The word "zombie" is what people go to when they think of a mindless being. The word "golem" is what a nazi would say as a dogwhistle to let people know he's down with hating (((Jews))). We Jews said we would never forget, and we haven't.
- internaut 10y ago
  I am aware of the associations with 'golem' and 'lugenpresse'. And I know the alt-right really hate the media. You're probably not aware fnovd, then many of the attendees were themselves Jewish, including those of 'Heiling' fame. http://www.thewrap.com/tila-tequila-jewish-friends-nazi-sieg-heil-video/ http://www.thewrap.com/tila-tequila-jewish-friends-nazi-sieg... These people are trolling. This is classic trolling. They know this causes people to react and how the media works. For instance The Atlantic in their video on the NPI conference showed apparently 'dozens' of people doing the 'Heil' salute, but if you examine the footage closely you'll notice Richard Spencer is in fact holding up a water glass in one hand and the camera is being positioned multiple times in such a way to make the same three people look like six or nine people. There are classic camera tricks in that video actually to form your opinion (e.g. selective blurring), I'm sure you'll see them too if you go and look. This is also trolling with a purpose in order to attract the right enemies. As I said, this is not the high moral ground. Nonetheless they are not Nazis. You'll need more than some Jewish boys and an Asian pornstar for that to have merit.
  - fnovd 10y ago
    The existence of trolls doesn't mean that neonazis can't exist. Your doubletalk isn't fooling anyone. The words and actions in Spencer's talk were beyond explicit. Wake up.

throwanem 10y ago

Who the hell is Richard Spencer? I had never heard of him until a couple weeks ago. No one I know who claims the label "alt-right" had heard of him until a couple of weeks ago. No one anywhere had heard of him until the media dug him out from under his rock and started shooting arrows into the big bull's eye he helpfully painted on his idiot forehead for them. Were I conspiratorially minded, I'd imagine he might be a false-flag plant. But I'm old enough to know better. The people I know who claim "alt-right" are not. They're young and full of piss and vinegar. They're also largely quite intelligent and not less well supplied with humanity than anyone else their age. They were quite receptive to the idea that nothing in the world is simple, and that demonizing any group of people en masse is a cheap, lazy, stupid shortcut past a lot of hard thought and the careful application of empathy toward the acknowledgement that compromise and negotiation are necessary toward any modus vivendi that's satisfactory to everyone, or as nearly so as can be managed in the imperfect world we inhabit. I've been at this for a year now, more or less. It's been slow, difficult, complex, and anything but heroic, as teaching always is. But I'd capitalized on a couple of early successes, favorably impressing some of those among this group who are themselves generally looked up to by most others, and I was having a real effect. I had them thinking, or starting to - critically analyzing the contradictions between the left's claims and its behavior, and distinguishing the desirability of a lot of progressive goals from the counterproductive ways in which the modern progressive movement operates. I had them getting toward ready to start using the brains and the hearts God gave them to work toward a genuinely better world - for everyone - rather than the mirage of the progressive millennium whose pursuit has brought us to the pretty pass whereat we stand. Of course, that was before the whole godforsaken world started calling them Nazis, sight unseen. How the hell am I supposed to compete with that? They're good kids, but they're kids. If you think it's easy, over a purely textual medium, to outdo "fuck you, you're not my dad", then by all means I invite you to try. And if you want to write them off, fine. That's easy and it's comfortable and it feels good. I get that. I don't even blame you, although I'd like to, because that would be easy too. But I am going to tell you you're making a mistake. Not that it matters, at this point. In the last few weeks, I've seen my influence go from considerable to just about none. They aren't listening to me any more, because there's nothing in the world as exciting as to fight against injustice - which is exactly how they see it, and considering the way I'm seeing them slandered I don't even think they're wrong. Certainly one bookish old homosexual who counsels analysis and empathy over rash action can't live up to that! So they're going to go their way, and you are going to go yours, and I guess I've wasted a year's worth of the hard work with which the actual left, for whom I hold no love, can't be bothered. Perhaps I should have done better, but for the life of me I can't see how. There's only so much shit you can expect people to eat, and the left long ago passed that mark with those whom it makes its enemies. Little wonder they're starting to sick it up now, and we all have to live with the mess. (And I see the post's been flagged, which means even the time I've spent writing this comment was wasted, because no one will see it. So it goes. May God and history judge us all more kindly than we deserve.)

MK999 10y ago

There is no rise of neo-nazism in the US. Real neo-nazi groups are run by the feds, if you don't know this already you are purposefully ignorant. The so-called Alt-Right and their memes are just a reaction to decades of liberal browbeating and name-calling (xenophobe... etc).

fnovd 10y ago
There is no factual basis for anything you wrote.
- MK999 10y ago
  Yes everything you say is 'fact' and 'science'. Try a bit harder.
  - sctb 10y ago
    We don't call other users “purposefully ignorant” or patronize them like this on HN. Please comment civilly and substantively or not at all.