14 ms·

How to Master an Accent

279 points by Thevet 10y ago

mysterypie 10y ago
If you want to also see her while she does the accents, this TED talk is great: https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_jones_as_a_one_woman_global_village https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_jones_as_a_one_woman_global_...
- apendleton 10y ago
  For a later TED she also did an excerpt of the play this article is about (so, more accents!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAK1UIb-Fio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAK1UIb-Fio
bkgunby 10y ago
As someone who learned to speak fluently in a different language, I believe the trick is to study the IPA of both your native language and the one you want to learn. This is especially true if you come from a language like English which isn't a phonetic language. It sets a common ground for you to work with. There may be some vowels that may be undistinguishable for both native speakers. However, you'll likely to come across some that requires a developed ear to differentiate the two. This is the reason why you probably have an accent. Focus on tongue placement, emphasis, change in pitch, etc. Of course, this won't help much to actually speak in a different language, but for accents I found this method incredibly helpful. It's the micro side of things that most people overlook.
- vinay427 10y ago
  As someone who is currently learning to speak in a different language, I would agree with this wholeheartedly. I learned IPA in a university course and have found it very useful for learning languages, especially because most native speakers of the target language may not be aware of the phonetics of that language.
wallflower 10y ago
On the subject of accents, in case you missed her viral video the first-time around, the absolutely astounding Saara from Finland. "What Languages Sound Like To Foreigners" https://youtu.be/ybcvlxivscw https://youtu.be/ybcvlxivscw
- sangnoir 10y ago
  There's a fantastic English-sounding song by an italian singer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VsmF9m_Nt8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VsmF9m_Nt8 Prisencolinensinainciusol by Adriano Celentano. It hurts my brain when I try to pick out meaning from the phenomes.
  - nkrisc 10y ago
    I love this song. I had always wondered what (American) English sounds like to people who don't understand it. As a native speaker I thought I couldn't know, but when I heard this song I did!
  - Eiriksmal 10y ago
    The Sims 2 Maxis audio director [0] went all-in on beefing up Simlish to freakishly mirror English--the same phonemes, only scrambled up into gibberish. When sang with convincing emotion and inflection, it sounds quite incredible and has you nodding along without even realizing the lyrics are completely fabricated. The Humble Brothers produced most of the Simlish tracks in the mid 00s and have an album of their impressive songs available on iTunes. "Upside" is a fine example.[1] [0] https://www.cnet.com/news/simlish-singing-the-music-behind-the-sims/ https://www.cnet.com/news/simlish-singing-the-music-behind-t... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty66tLNus1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty66tLNus1E
- _samihasan_ 10y ago
  Her pronunciation of Arabic is off a little bit. She just crammed the Semitic sounds in a few made up words sparkled by some real Arabic words and that's it but she should have been making more effort in imitating the rhythm and intonation (prosody) [1] to fool the native Arabic speaker ears that what she speaks was actually Arabic. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_%28linguistics%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_%28linguistics%29
Rzor 10y ago
Wow. This is really hard. I like to play a Russian accent for fun and would like to improve it, but I guess I'll stay with YouTube channels to do that.
laurieg 10y ago
Does anyone have any advice on how to hear the distinction in sounds that aren't in your native language? For example an English speaker learning Chinese tones or a Japanese speaker learning L and R differences. It seems like this is a huge wall to learning accents.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  There are books (and, better but more expensive, teachers) that address directly the mechanics (e.g., tongue, lip, etc., positions) of making the sounds. In essence, bypass hearing the difference (that comes later, through use) and skip straight to making the sounds. Probably works better for unfamiliar phonemes than tones, though. Different issues entirely.
- stevekemp 10y ago
  This is something I struggled with, and I think the only thing that helped for me is a) immersion and b) time. I moved to Finland and couldn't differentiate between ö and o for the longest time. But after living here for a year it became easier.
- wallflower 10y ago
  I haven't done their courses but check out the Mimic Method. It is an intriguing way at learning a language that focuses on the IPA-based sounds in that language. http://mimicmethod.com http://mimicmethod.com
  - nyando 10y ago
    Interesting, I've noticed that this is how I tend to learn languages too. When I moved to Switzerland I picked up the accent by always listening to my friends talk or watching Swiss videos on YouTube, then repeating the sounds back to myself.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  Yes. Do a lot of listening and do minimal pair drills. I don't think Chinese tones are that tough, but it can take a long time to train the ears when the actual sounds of the language are different, e.g. Taiwanese where there are aspirated, plain and voiced versions of a bunch of consonants. Basically k/g of English mapped to 3 different consonants, as did p/b, t/d, etc. This drove me nuts when I was learning: https://toshuo.com/2010/the-hardest-thing-about-taiwanese-phonics/ https://toshuo.com/2010/the-hardest-thing-about-taiwanese-ph...
xiaoma 10y ago
I always loved Robert Greene's story of when he was young and living in France he got hired at a hotel while he was pretending to be Irish. He talked about it in an interview that got a little into how much of a method acting exercise it became. He actually took the job and got sucked into an alternate identity for years! https://youtu.be/vLXAZsCwGwM?t=9m54s https://youtu.be/vLXAZsCwGwM?t=9m54s
GuiA 10y ago
Since many comments in this thread converge towards language pronunciation: When people are learning how to draw, they typically have to learn how to "unsee". To quote Betty Edwards: students beginning in art generally do not really see what is in front of their eyes — that is, they do not perceive in the way required for drawing. They take note of what's there, and quickly translate the perception into words and symbols mainly based on the symbol system developed throughout childhood and on what they know about the perceived object. Learning how to pronounce sounds in a new language is the same. A lot of people will pronounce foreign words with how their brain thinks it should sound, using their native language as a baseline. The trick is to try to get rid of any phonetic preconception you might have, and pronounce sounds as you hear them from native speakers. It takes practice, but it's a learnable skill. (Which is why romanization of Asian languages, for instance, is a trap for new learners: if you're learning Japanese, the latin alphabet should have no place whatsoever in your learning. It's a tempting, but false path) For drawing like for speaking, kids are naturally good at this. (except while language acquisition happens naturally for kids, deliberate drawing practice rarely does)
- joggery 10y ago
  Indeed. And just as most people can't see things accurately, not can they sense what's going on inside their mouths. AFAICT each accent has a signature pattern of muscle tension and positioning of jaw, pharynx, etc.
- yoz-y 10y ago
  I agree with the idea but disagree about the romanisation part. There are many reasons why people should start with romanised versions first. The main reason is that one should concentrate on the language first and on complex writing later, otherwise there is too much information to process. The other reason is that any useful actual writing in those languages will be done in the romanised alphabet (i.e.: on a computer). The barrier of unlearning the pronunciation of different characters is no larger when learning Chinese pinyin while being english, than learning Slovak pronunciations of Latin letters while being French.
  - _samihasan_ 10y ago
mrkgnao 10y ago
> a doctor who uses homeopathic medicines, massage techniques and energy work I wonder if there are any people who market homeopathy targeted at vocal training. How would that even work (I mean, in terms of similia similibus curentur or whatever)?
- stefantalpalaru 10y ago
  > How would that even work (I mean, in terms of similia similibus curentur or whatever)? It works in terms of some people having more money than common sense.
tatotato 10y ago
Error 503 Backend is unhealthy Funniest one I've seen in a while.
Singletoned 10y ago
It's a bit weird for an interview titled "How to Master an Accent" to start with the quote: > “For me it’s not an accent. I know people who do brilliant accents. But I don’t know how to do that.”
- gotofritz 10y ago
  Not really, it explains where she comes from - she doesn't think of an abstract accent, but of a person with that accent
- Shorel 10y ago
  I think that's her way to explain that she doesn't try to use her own words with an accent (like most people would do), but she memorizes the sounds (think IPA) and mouth positions and tries to reproduce that as exactly as possible, even if in some cases the sound means another word in her own accent.
dominotw 10y ago
the window of mastering an accent closes once you hit your late teens. After that your brain cannot hear the correct pronunciation and merely maps it to closest sounding sound in you mental library. Once you can't hear it, you can't speak it. It is much easier and useful to learn the "flow" of the language than trying to make new sounds . People always use colin Farrell as an example of adults who mastered an accent but forget that his native language is phonetically close to the language he is supposedly mastering.
sethammons 10y ago
I love accents and flavors of speech. A couple of thing I noticed when I was a bit younger. In California, words that end with "-ty" are pronounced "-dy." Eternity -> Eternidy. Also, In Southern California at least, you measure distance in time. "How far away is the store?", "about five minutes."
oxplot 10y ago
* Listen to a lot of radio/movies/shows * Record own voice speaking passages of above material * Play back, compare, adjust and repeat Do above for countless hours

279 points by Thevet 10y ago

If you want to also see her while she does the accents, this TED talk is great: https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_jones_as_a_one_woman_global_village https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_jones_as_a_one_woman_global_...

apendleton 10y ago
For a later TED she also did an excerpt of the play this article is about (so, more accents!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAK1UIb-Fio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAK1UIb-Fio

bkgunby 10y ago

As someone who learned to speak fluently in a different language, I believe the trick is to study the IPA of both your native language and the one you want to learn. This is especially true if you come from a language like English which isn't a phonetic language. It sets a common ground for you to work with. There may be some vowels that may be undistinguishable for both native speakers. However, you'll likely to come across some that requires a developed ear to differentiate the two. This is the reason why you probably have an accent. Focus on tongue placement, emphasis, change in pitch, etc. Of course, this won't help much to actually speak in a different language, but for accents I found this method incredibly helpful. It's the micro side of things that most people overlook.

vinay427 10y ago
As someone who is currently learning to speak in a different language, I would agree with this wholeheartedly. I learned IPA in a university course and have found it very useful for learning languages, especially because most native speakers of the target language may not be aware of the phonetics of that language.

wallflower 10y ago

On the subject of accents, in case you missed her viral video the first-time around, the absolutely astounding Saara from Finland. "What Languages Sound Like To Foreigners" https://youtu.be/ybcvlxivscw https://youtu.be/ybcvlxivscw

sangnoir 10y ago
There's a fantastic English-sounding song by an italian singer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VsmF9m_Nt8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VsmF9m_Nt8 Prisencolinensinainciusol by Adriano Celentano. It hurts my brain when I try to pick out meaning from the phenomes.
- nkrisc 10y ago
  I love this song. I had always wondered what (American) English sounds like to people who don't understand it. As a native speaker I thought I couldn't know, but when I heard this song I did!
- Eiriksmal 10y ago
  The Sims 2 Maxis audio director [0] went all-in on beefing up Simlish to freakishly mirror English--the same phonemes, only scrambled up into gibberish. When sang with convincing emotion and inflection, it sounds quite incredible and has you nodding along without even realizing the lyrics are completely fabricated. The Humble Brothers produced most of the Simlish tracks in the mid 00s and have an album of their impressive songs available on iTunes. "Upside" is a fine example.[1] [0] https://www.cnet.com/news/simlish-singing-the-music-behind-the-sims/ https://www.cnet.com/news/simlish-singing-the-music-behind-t... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty66tLNus1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty66tLNus1E
_samihasan_ 10y ago
Her pronunciation of Arabic is off a little bit. She just crammed the Semitic sounds in a few made up words sparkled by some real Arabic words and that's it but she should have been making more effort in imitating the rhythm and intonation (prosody) [1] to fool the native Arabic speaker ears that what she speaks was actually Arabic. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_%28linguistics%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_%28linguistics%29

Rzor 10y ago

Wow. This is really hard. I like to play a Russian accent for fun and would like to improve it, but I guess I'll stay with YouTube channels to do that.

laurieg 10y ago

Does anyone have any advice on how to hear the distinction in sounds that aren't in your native language? For example an English speaker learning Chinese tones or a Japanese speaker learning L and R differences. It seems like this is a huge wall to learning accents.

dragonwriter 10y ago
There are books (and, better but more expensive, teachers) that address directly the mechanics (e.g., tongue, lip, etc., positions) of making the sounds. In essence, bypass hearing the difference (that comes later, through use) and skip straight to making the sounds. Probably works better for unfamiliar phonemes than tones, though. Different issues entirely.
stevekemp 10y ago
This is something I struggled with, and I think the only thing that helped for me is a) immersion and b) time. I moved to Finland and couldn't differentiate between ö and o for the longest time. But after living here for a year it became easier.
wallflower 10y ago
I haven't done their courses but check out the Mimic Method. It is an intriguing way at learning a language that focuses on the IPA-based sounds in that language. http://mimicmethod.com http://mimicmethod.com
- nyando 10y ago
  Interesting, I've noticed that this is how I tend to learn languages too. When I moved to Switzerland I picked up the accent by always listening to my friends talk or watching Swiss videos on YouTube, then repeating the sounds back to myself.
xiaoma 10y ago
Yes. Do a lot of listening and do minimal pair drills. I don't think Chinese tones are that tough, but it can take a long time to train the ears when the actual sounds of the language are different, e.g. Taiwanese where there are aspirated, plain and voiced versions of a bunch of consonants. Basically k/g of English mapped to 3 different consonants, as did p/b, t/d, etc. This drove me nuts when I was learning: https://toshuo.com/2010/the-hardest-thing-about-taiwanese-phonics/ https://toshuo.com/2010/the-hardest-thing-about-taiwanese-ph...

xiaoma 10y ago

I always loved Robert Greene's story of when he was young and living in France he got hired at a hotel while he was pretending to be Irish. He talked about it in an interview that got a little into how much of a method acting exercise it became. He actually took the job and got sucked into an alternate identity for years! https://youtu.be/vLXAZsCwGwM?t=9m54s https://youtu.be/vLXAZsCwGwM?t=9m54s

GuiA 10y ago

Since many comments in this thread converge towards language pronunciation: When people are learning how to draw, they typically have to learn how to "unsee". To quote Betty Edwards: students beginning in art generally do not really see what is in front of their eyes — that is, they do not perceive in the way required for drawing. They take note of what's there, and quickly translate the perception into words and symbols mainly based on the symbol system developed throughout childhood and on what they know about the perceived object. Learning how to pronounce sounds in a new language is the same. A lot of people will pronounce foreign words with how their brain thinks it should sound, using their native language as a baseline. The trick is to try to get rid of any phonetic preconception you might have, and pronounce sounds as you hear them from native speakers. It takes practice, but it's a learnable skill. (Which is why romanization of Asian languages, for instance, is a trap for new learners: if you're learning Japanese, the latin alphabet should have no place whatsoever in your learning. It's a tempting, but false path) For drawing like for speaking, kids are naturally good at this. (except while language acquisition happens naturally for kids, deliberate drawing practice rarely does)

joggery 10y ago
Indeed. And just as most people can't see things accurately, not can they sense what's going on inside their mouths. AFAICT each accent has a signature pattern of muscle tension and positioning of jaw, pharynx, etc.
yoz-y 10y ago
I agree with the idea but disagree about the romanisation part. There are many reasons why people should start with romanised versions first. The main reason is that one should concentrate on the language first and on complex writing later, otherwise there is too much information to process. The other reason is that any useful actual writing in those languages will be done in the romanised alphabet (i.e.: on a computer). The barrier of unlearning the pronunciation of different characters is no larger when learning Chinese pinyin while being english, than learning Slovak pronunciations of Latin letters while being French.
- _samihasan_ 10y ago

mrkgnao 10y ago

> a doctor who uses homeopathic medicines, massage techniques and energy work I wonder if there are any people who market homeopathy targeted at vocal training. How would that even work (I mean, in terms of similia similibus curentur or whatever)?

stefantalpalaru 10y ago
> How would that even work (I mean, in terms of similia similibus curentur or whatever)? It works in terms of some people having more money than common sense.

tatotato 10y ago

Error 503 Backend is unhealthy Funniest one I've seen in a while.

Singletoned 10y ago

It's a bit weird for an interview titled "How to Master an Accent" to start with the quote: > “For me it’s not an accent. I know people who do brilliant accents. But I don’t know how to do that.”

gotofritz 10y ago
Not really, it explains where she comes from - she doesn't think of an abstract accent, but of a person with that accent
Shorel 10y ago
I think that's her way to explain that she doesn't try to use her own words with an accent (like most people would do), but she memorizes the sounds (think IPA) and mouth positions and tries to reproduce that as exactly as possible, even if in some cases the sound means another word in her own accent.

dominotw 10y ago

the window of mastering an accent closes once you hit your late teens. After that your brain cannot hear the correct pronunciation and merely maps it to closest sounding sound in you mental library. Once you can't hear it, you can't speak it. It is much easier and useful to learn the "flow" of the language than trying to make new sounds . People always use colin Farrell as an example of adults who mastered an accent but forget that his native language is phonetically close to the language he is supposedly mastering.

sethammons 10y ago

I love accents and flavors of speech. A couple of thing I noticed when I was a bit younger. In California, words that end with "-ty" are pronounced "-dy." Eternity -> Eternidy. Also, In Southern California at least, you measure distance in time. "How far away is the store?", "about five minutes."

oxplot 10y ago

* Listen to a lot of radio/movies/shows * Record own voice speaking passages of above material * Play back, compare, adjust and repeat Do above for countless hours