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Being a good sysadmin in 1996 and 2006 also required skills in programming. Sysadmins who don't code have always been limited in their career evolution. The sam

by jvehent 10y ago

Being a good sysadmin in 1996 and 2006 also required skills in programming. Sysadmins who don't code have always been limited in their career evolution. The same is true for developers who don't know anything about operations. The focus on automation, and it being called DevOps, is simply an evolution of the work of sysadmins. The same way devs evolved toward TDD and other modern programming techniques.

DanielBMarkham 10y ago
The focus on automation, and it being called DevOps, is simply an evolution of the work of sysadmins. I believe you have this exactly backwards. The problem is that we keep silo'ing everything and inventing new buzzwords and half-assed tech. We can split things into smaller pieces quicker than we could ever staff up. Nothing has changed since the 80s. The only thing that's different now is that instead of programming in one little pond of a language, now everything you do is programmable. That doesn't mean you need 47 specialists. It means you need to get really good at managing and limiting complexity. We don't want to split off and evolve roles into newer and even more specialized roles. This is the thing that made deployment and updating so whacked to begin with. </rant>
lisivka 10y ago
DevOps is not about automation of Ops work. DevOps is about replacement of Ops with code.
- Others 10y ago
  Can you clarify the difference between your first and second statement? Isn't replacing Ops with code just automating Ops work?
  - lisivka 10y ago
    Difference is thin, as between "automatic", "fully automatic", "intelligent" or "smart" systems. Or as between "programmer", "developer", "software engineer". Ops team may create an automatic solution, e.g. script to call with parameters and a runbook. DevOps will create fully automated solution, without need for a runbook. By definition, DevOps is developer, (an one who uses Agile techniques, such as automated test cases, CI, source control systems, ticket management systems, etc.), who is able to do Ops tasks with code.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      You have a different definition than I do. I'll copy-paste Wikipedia since it matches my understanding: > DevOps is a set of practices that emphasizes the collaboration and communication of both software developers and other information-technology (IT) professionals while automating the process of software delivery and infrastructure changes. DevOps certainly does not mean that Dev has to do Ops now, too, although it's frequently misunderstood as meaning that, and IMO that usually leads to a lot of tears in the long run.
      - lisivka 10y ago
        «DevOps» term originated from conference named «DevOps»: http://www.jedi.be/blog/2009/12/22/charting-out-devops-ideas/ http://www.jedi.be/blog/2009/12/22/charting-out-devops-ideas... Wikipedia quotes description of tne conference, not a description of DevOps role. However, if you read carefully original article, you will see that main idea was to close gap between ops and dev team by bringing dev techniques, such as Agile, to ops team. So, DevOps IS developer with Ops knowledge.

by jvehent 10y ago

DanielBMarkham 10y ago

The focus on automation, and it being called DevOps, is simply an evolution of the work of sysadmins. I believe you have this exactly backwards. The problem is that we keep silo'ing everything and inventing new buzzwords and half-assed tech. We can split things into smaller pieces quicker than we could ever staff up. Nothing has changed since the 80s. The only thing that's different now is that instead of programming in one little pond of a language, now everything you do is programmable. That doesn't mean you need 47 specialists. It means you need to get really good at managing and limiting complexity. We don't want to split off and evolve roles into newer and even more specialized roles. This is the thing that made deployment and updating so whacked to begin with. </rant>

lisivka 10y ago

DevOps is not about automation of Ops work. DevOps is about replacement of Ops with code.

Others 10y ago
Can you clarify the difference between your first and second statement? Isn't replacing Ops with code just automating Ops work?
- lisivka 10y ago
  Difference is thin, as between "automatic", "fully automatic", "intelligent" or "smart" systems. Or as between "programmer", "developer", "software engineer". Ops team may create an automatic solution, e.g. script to call with parameters and a runbook. DevOps will create fully automated solution, without need for a runbook. By definition, DevOps is developer, (an one who uses Agile techniques, such as automated test cases, CI, source control systems, ticket management systems, etc.), who is able to do Ops tasks with code.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    You have a different definition than I do. I'll copy-paste Wikipedia since it matches my understanding: > DevOps is a set of practices that emphasizes the collaboration and communication of both software developers and other information-technology (IT) professionals while automating the process of software delivery and infrastructure changes. DevOps certainly does not mean that Dev has to do Ops now, too, although it's frequently misunderstood as meaning that, and IMO that usually leads to a lot of tears in the long run.
    - lisivka 10y ago
      «DevOps» term originated from conference named «DevOps»: http://www.jedi.be/blog/2009/12/22/charting-out-devops-ideas/ http://www.jedi.be/blog/2009/12/22/charting-out-devops-ideas... Wikipedia quotes description of tne conference, not a description of DevOps role. However, if you read carefully original article, you will see that main idea was to close gap between ops and dev team by bringing dev techniques, such as Agile, to ops team. So, DevOps IS developer with Ops knowledge.